#99067
03/20/2003 4:02 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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The other night in the pre-war news commentary, someone was talking about the way that wars tend not to unfold as plans, and they quoted Caesar's remark about crossing the Rubicon, "...the die is cast." The speaker was interpreting this as in "a roll of the dice."
I had thought that the phrase "the die is cast" referred to metal work, i.e. metal poured into a form and allowed to cool. Which is correct?
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#99068
03/20/2003 4:13 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Alex: I don't know what the dice game Caesar referred to, but evidently there must have been a game in which only one die was used. I have read that animal knuckle bones could be used The game could have been as simple as throwing one bone, then throwing a second one, trying to match the position of the first one, and losing your wager if you failed to achieve a match. If carefully made numbered cubes like modern dice had been u;sed, the archaeologists ought to have found thousands of them. I'll go see if I find anything about that. I found several sites indicating that cubic dice go back three thousand years or more. Here is a site with pictures of ancient dice. However, no clue as to rules of games in Caesar's day. http://www.geocities.com/ladysveva/games/DiceImages
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#99069
03/20/2003 4:17 PM
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Alea iacta est
alea -ae f. [a game of dice , game of hazard]; hence [chance, risk, uncertainty].
iacto -are [to throw , cast, toss, fling away or about; to diffuse, spread, scatter; to harass, disturb]
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#99070
03/20/2003 4:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
addict
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addict
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Ah! Asterix!!  I always read that as Alea JACTA est... Faldage, is Jacta the same as Iacta?
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#99071
03/20/2003 5:21 PM
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Jacta, iacta, same difference. The J is a modern conceit.
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#99072
03/20/2003 7:15 PM
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Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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And the modern use of the "i" instead is a Faldagian conceit. Go figger.
- Pfranz
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#99073
03/20/2003 8:09 PM
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The online Latin dictionary I was quoting used the I. Din't want no confusion.
Wait a minute, Faldage, you said "jacta" and then the dictionary said "iacta." Which is it...?
You know how Juan gets
Julie used an I. If it's good enuff for Julie, it's good enuff for me.
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#99074
03/20/2003 8:21 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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>If it's good enuff for Julie..
yes, I'm sure he'd be pleased to see eiaculate, iactation, iactitation and the like.
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#99075
03/20/2003 8:26 PM
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I just found a quotation from Suetonius that says Caesar was reported to have used the phrase. I had thought perhaps it might be a phony legend.
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#99076
03/20/2003 8:33 PM
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Plutarch claims he attually® said Anerriphtho kubos.
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#99077
03/20/2003 8:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm sure he said the Latin equivalent of "The hell with it, let's go, assholes!" Rubicon, Euphrates. There's a qualitative difference?
- Pfranz
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#99078
03/20/2003 9:57 PM
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Dear Faldage: Plutarch was writing in Greek, was he not?
So "Anerriphtho kubos" was not what Caesar himself said,
but was Plurarch's translation of "Alea jacta est". Is that not so?
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#99079
03/20/2003 10:48 PM
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I dunno, Dr Bill. According to http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar Plutarch says Julie said it in Greek, not Latin. Course Plutarch wasn't there and Suetonius wasn't either, not less'n they had time machines. We should also remember that when Julie crossed the Rubicon he was violating Roman law.
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#99080
03/20/2003 11:30 PM
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Dear Faldage: Do you think that on such a symbolic occaasion, when he was trying to motivate his followers, it would have been psychologically sound to use Greek? I think it highly unlikely.
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#99081
03/21/2003 12:56 AM
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Eius! Noli legationem interficere! Nihil alium quam quem scripsit Plutarchus refero! Contra eum ambige!
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#99082
03/21/2003 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
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I'd always thought it refered to the gambling cube or some fascimile thereof for the reaons you and others have cited. Interesting allusion for me. I've always thought that the emphasis was part "fait accompli" the done deed. He's done his part, flung die by crossing the rubicon - but the die has not yet settled, that is, he didn't at the time not know the outcome of his roll, his gamble. (Never knew it came down to us from Plutarch.)
k
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#99083
03/21/2003 5:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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You should get out more ... or read the Asterix books. The onliest place where you can guarantee absolute historical accuracy about what Julie did and said!  - Pfranz
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#99084
03/22/2003 5:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Plutarch claims he attually® said Anerriphtho kubos.
I have consulted Plutarch myself, Faldage.
He returns the plug by suggesting a weaving of "crossing the Rubicon" and "the die is cast". Hence: "casting the Rubicon" - certainly a memorable image, worthy of a genuine "Faldage" ... wouldn't you say?
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#99085
03/22/2003 6:49 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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consulted Plutarch myself
Ouija board?
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#99086
03/22/2003 8:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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#99087
03/22/2003 8:44 PM
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Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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#99088
03/22/2003 8:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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#99089
03/22/2003 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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obiter dicta
Quod erat côpŭlâtim
- Pfranz
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#99090
03/22/2003 11:37 PM
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Obiter Dicta
"o·bi·ter dic·tum N., pl. obiter dic·ta
1. An opinion voiced by a judge that has only incidental bearing
on the case in question and is therefore not binding. Also Called dictum.
2. An incidental remark or observation;a passing comment.
[Latin, something said in passing: obiter, in passing; dictum, from neuter past participle of dicere, to say]"
--The American Heritage® Concise Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition.
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#99091
03/24/2003 12:03 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Date: Tue Mar 20 00:02:10 EST 2001
Subject: A.Word.A.Day--obiter dictum
X-Bonus: I'm proud to pay taxes in the United States; the only thing is, I could be just as proud for half the money. -Arthur Godfrey, radio and television entertainer (1903-1983)
obiter dictum (OB-i-tuhr DIK-tuhm) noun, plural obiter dicta
1. A passing comment.
2. An observation or opinion by a judge that is incidental to the case in
question, and not binding as precedent.
[From Latin, literally, saying by the way.]
"`Abstract Expressionism was being deployed as a cold war weapon,' (Frances
Stonor) Saunders jauntily asserts. ... Obiter dicta like Saunders's
pronouncement above highlight her irreducible problem."
Josef Joffe, America's secret weapon, New York Times Book Review, Apr 23,
2000.
This week's theme: words about words. http://wordsmith.org/awad/archives/0301
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#99092
03/24/2003 2:53 AM
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Posts: 3,065
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In reply to:
I'd always thought it refered to the gambling cube or some fascimile thereof for the reaons you and others have cited. Interesting allusion for me. I've always thought that the emphasis was part "fait accompli" the done deed. He's done his part, flung die by crossing the rubicon - but the die has not yet settled, that is, he didn't at the time not know the outcome of his roll, his gamble. (Never knew it came down to us from Plutarch.)
Plutarch says it was proverbial. From Dryden's 1683 (yes that Dryden) translation http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/caesar.html
When he came to the river Rubicon, which parts Gaul within the Alps from the rest of Italy, his thoughts began to work, now he was just entering upon the danger, and he wavered much in his mind when he considered the greatness of the enterprise into which he was throwing himself. He checked his course and ordered a halt, while he revolved with himself, and often changed his opinion one way and the other, without speaking a word. This was when his purposes fluctuated most; presently he also discussed the matter with his friends who were about him (of which number Asinius Pollio was one), computing how many calamities his passing that river would bring upon mankind, and what a relation of it would be transmitted to posterity. At last, in a sort of passion, casting aside calculation, and abandoning himself to what might come, and using the proverb frequently in their mouths who enter upon dangerous and bold attempts, "The die is cast," with these words he took the river.
Suetonius just says (Rolfe's 1920s translation at: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/suetonius-julius.html):
XXXII. As he stood in doubt, this sign was given him. On a sudden there appeared hard by a being of wondrous stature and beauty, who sat and played upon a reed; and when not only the shepherds flocked to hear him, but many of the soldiers left their posts, and among them some of the trumpeters, the apparition snatched a trumpet from one of them, rushed to the river, and sounding the war-note with mighty blast, strode to the opposite bank. Then Caesar cried: " Take we the course which the signs of the gods and the false dealing of our foes point out. The die is cast [ Iacta alea est,' inquit'].
Bingley
Bingley
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#99093
03/24/2003 3:01 AM
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Hmm...every time we hit Submit to make a post, we have cast the die. We don't know the outcome!
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#99094
03/24/2003 11:02 AM
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every time we hit Submit to make a post, we have cast the die. We don't know the outcome!
Yeahbut®, we ain' violating Roman law when we do it.
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#99095
03/24/2003 12:34 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Oh, I dunno. Isn't it still the underlying basis for a lot of Continental legal systems, i.e. the Code Napoleon? It's so easy to break French law that the English actually seem to consider it an Olympic-level sport.
- Pfranz
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#99096
03/25/2003 2:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
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It's so easy to break French law that the English actually seem to consider it an Olympic-level sport
For example?
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#99097
03/25/2003 1:11 PM
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Well, I don't know what Pfranz meant, but haven't we had on here before that France has strict laws about language?
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#99098
03/25/2003 2:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,156 |
France has strict laws about language?
My limited experience doesn't bear that out. When I was in France last year, for example, I saw signs for "Parking". which is apparently the French word for parking. (Duh.) In Canadian French, that would be "Stationnement" - you see it on signs here and everything. I found it odd, since France is supposedly quite uptight about their language, that on official signs they'd adopted this English word that even the North American francophones don't use.
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#99099
03/25/2003 8:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I work (at least until Friday) with a bunch of people who either have houses in northern France or who seem to think that the best way to have a holiday is to go and torment the rural French. They all seem to be constantly running foul of the local laws - speeding, fences, even the colours they paint their houses. None of them seem to resent it; most of them expect to do something else that will nark the French authorities. It's kind of a standing joke ...
- Pfranz
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#99100
03/25/2003 9:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
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...haven't we had on here before that France has strict laws about language?
"The French don't care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly." -- Henry Higgins, in My Fair Lady
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#99101
03/26/2003 12:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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... in France last year, for example, I saw signs for "Parking". which is apparently the French word for parking.
There has been a change, then. The last time I was in France - over 40 years ago - the word "Stationnement" as used to proclaim a parking place.
Mind you, the French referred to their car as "une voiture" rather than "un auto", in those days.
"Tout ça change ..." etc.
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#99102
03/26/2003 2:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Saw both "parking" and "stationnement" in Paris. They're consistently inconsistent. They also talk about both "le logiciel" and "le software". So "voiture" and "auto" seem pretty much of a muchness, n'est-ce pas?
- Pfranz
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#99103
03/26/2003 2:36 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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"Tout ça change ..." etc.
So "voiture" and "auto" seem pretty much of a
muchness, n'est-ce pas?
All this French is giving me a taste for some Freedom Fries. But more to the point, Franz, isn't that what Rhuby said?
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