#98000
03/12/2003 9:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 104
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Posts: 104 |
Oh No! Mr O'Neill, sir, I assure you I was not attacking you for having animosity! I try not to attack people for stating their own beliefs. :) When I wrote the post, I did not even pay attention to *who* was taking Faldage to task...if I had had a problem with you specifically, I would have addressed you directly :) One thing I try to never do is Indirectly attack someone with generic comments that are obviously meant for that person alone . I'm sorry my post appeared as such!
I think my error was in using such a strong word as "animosity" What I was really trying to say is that I understood Faldage's statement one way, and I didn't understand why *that* particular way was offensive. Now, I see that you understood it another way, and you thought that way was offensive.....as would I, had I originally understood it that way, too!
Now, Who's on first, and What's on second.............. :D
(please forgive my fake smilies.....I seem unable to make use of the smilies on this board :(
Oh, and btw, thanks for pointing out the term Oriental is now considered offensive. It was in the back of my mind that there was another, perhaps better word (Asian) but I could not think of it!
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#98001
03/12/2003 2:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
First of all Hans Brinker and the Silver Skates is a story about a poor kid who wins an ice skating contest on cheap skates, and his prize is a pair of silver skates. The story of the little Dutch boy who saved Holland by sticking his finger in the dyke is a different story altogether.
The fact that it is a European story is not the point. I am not arguing that only European stories should be told. My point was about the banning of the term stickball, which is a variant of baseball typically played in northeastern cities. IIRC you can see a game of stickball being played in one of the Godfather movies, for example. As a Kentuckian, stickball is pretty far from my daily life, but it never bothered me to learn about is existence. After all, nobody was shoving the idea down my throat that I was inferior because I wasn't a cracker jack stickball player. Just because something is regional doesn't mean that it is offensive.
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#98002
03/12/2003 3:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
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The story of the little Dutch boy who saved Holland by sticking his finger in the dyke is a different story altogether.
BTW, back in 1984 I adapted "The Little Dutch Boy and the Dyke" as a children's puppet-play for the Dutch-themed Spring Tulip Festival in Cape May, NJ. And I had to change the title to "The Little Dutch Boy Who Saved the Day" because "dyke" was considered offensive, from both a PC and Religious Right standpoint (sigh).
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#98004
03/12/2003 3:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
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Posts: 555 |
Thanks Alex! I knew I had little Hans all mixed up! Was that book titled, 'Hans Brinker or the silver skates'? Why the 'or'? Or, have I scrambled the title too?
WO'N, I cannot imagine what could possibly be wrong with dyke?
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#98005
03/12/2003 3:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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WO'N, I cannot imagine what could possibly be wrong with dyke?
Dyke is slang and/or a disparagement for lesbian. You really never heard that, maahey?
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#98007
03/12/2003 7:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2 |
You're right, it is Hans Brinker OR the Silver Skates.
Prescriptivists of the world,unite!
I too learned it as "Hans Brinker AND the Silver Skates."
If you google you find all varieties!
HB and the SS
HB or the SS
HB, or the SS
HB/SS
barnesandnoble.com sells books by same author, both titles (and/or), take your pick.
Now I don't know whom to believe any more! I think I'll stick with what I know I know is so.
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#98008
03/13/2003 5:20 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
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Before I started reading this thread I don't think I had ever heard of Hans Brinker, but I had certainly heard of Scherazade, Sinbad, etc.
But generally speaking I'm a lot more familiar with stories from my own culture and the cultures it derives from than am I with those from other cultures. What's wrong with that? I don't expect Indonesians who've never travelled to necessarily be familiar with the stories I remember from my childhood, why expect people from back home who've never travelled to be familiar with stories from places where they've never been?
Bingley
Bingley
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#98009
03/13/2003 7:05 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
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All this is that Alex's fault! He brought up Hans Brinker, he did!!  I extrapolated that to Faldage's thought and look where we are now! I think it has more to do with education, Bingley; I don't know that travelling has much to do with it. Unless one has travelled a lot as a child and has therefore been exposed to different educational systems. Folklore, mythology, short stories from here and there, are mandatory reading for all school going children. The question was, do children read enough about cultures from other lands? Faldage said something about some races doing the considering for others (not wrt scholastic learnings). That is true and only because in recent history, these same races have colonised more lands and have therefore spread their stories and culture far and wide. I agreed largely with everything Alex said too. Hans Brinker as an example, however provoked a smile and a very tongue in cheek comment, because I personally don't believe that there is a lot of difference between these two groups. Certainly, comparatively, it is somewhat on the lower rungs of the scale of cultural difference. The Dutch were colonisers too and automatically fell into the group that was doing the considering. I have a strong cross cultural experience. I used to say that I am a Brit by every standard except race (Indian). I dont know that I can say that anymore. But obviously, there is nothing wrong with reading about one's own culture and folklore. There is certainly nothing wrong with knowing more about it either. I was saying quite the opposite. It is one of my beliefs that, it will help us to understand one another more, if, as children, we were exposed to other cultures and traditions in a broader sense. There is a tremendous exposure to the culture, ideology, folklore, mythologies of other civilizations in Indian schools. It never fails to amaze me, how much those children are exposed to. Certainly, this is yet another Raj hangover. How many (and I do so hope that there are many)on this board know about the Mahabharatha or the Panchatantra, or the Arabian nights? That, was what I was refering to. Currently, the cultural exchange is rather unidirectional (W-E). But this is all history in the making and the wheel constantly spins and turns. And, so, while it is important to make reparations for some of the gross errors of history, it is practically impossible to iron all the wrinkles out. Rather than language police (who will and should inevitably fail) it might be more prudent to have policy police, eh? I heartily agree too, with your earlier comment on the mising word 'only', wrt the article.
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#98010
03/13/2003 7:21 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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>Certainly, this is yet another Raj hangover. How many (and I do so hope that there are many)on this board know about the Mahabharatha or the Panchatantra, or the Arabian nights? More than you might think, I suspect. http://snurl.com/y6rhttp://snurl.com/y6s
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#98011
03/13/2003 1:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,156 |
I've always understood dike to be an earthern mound which holds back water (always an issue growing up on the flood plain of the Red River, and therefore a common word), and dyke to be the disparaging slang word for "lesbian". Atomica lists dyke as an alternative to dike but I'd never seen the "earthen mound" version spelled that way before.
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#98012
03/13/2003 2:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
I reckon it's us Brits at fault again here. According to OED either spelling can be applied to either meaning. MW says differently - it has been listening to Bean.
I think the usual UK spelling for both meanings would be with the 'Y'. Certainly that looks ryte to me.
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#98013
03/14/2003 3:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I think Bingley deftly hit the nail on the head with his Occam's razor when he said: I would say that whoever drew up these guidelines has repeatedly missed out one little word: only. They should read Don't only show women as, don't only show men as, don't only show Amerindians as etc.(I would insert "only" after the object but that's a whole nother topic  )
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#98014
03/14/2003 10:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Yes! And if he were MY old Dutch, he might have hit that nail Delftly on the head...
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#98015
03/15/2003 12:42 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I, too, like Bingley's only point.
But now to open a can of worms:
A couple of summers ago I took a group of high school students, who'd failed senior English during the regular term, through a very abbreviated course in world lit.
The book. Oh, heaven, save us, the book! There were some fine examples of literature, but the short stories from other nations? Thin. Very. Infantile language. Too obvious moral points being made. Please do not misunderstand me here. The problem wasn't with the cultures represented, but with the literary choices offered. I asked several teachers in the county about many of the stories that had been included in the anthology, and each agreed that the choices had been poor. I wondered whether a great deal had been lost in translation. I suspect that the compilers of the anthology had played hit and miss with wanting to represent a wide range of cultures, but not holding up consistent literary standards for each chosen work.
Studying Oedipus was the high point of the summer--especially once the kids had a good understanding of the story and the irony in the dialogue. We followed up their papers and talks about the play with a terrific parody of it in which Jack Nicholson read the part of Oedipus...Edith Bunker may have played Jocasta...and Mr. Rogers played some role? NPR parody. I think it was called "The Six-Minute Oedipus" and was most likely one of Garrison Keillor's skits.
"A Doll's House" went fairly well...
But as we moved forward into contemporary literature from other cultures, that's where things fell apart and didn't offer challenging material. I must believe that much was lost in translation, which means, I suppose, that the translations were not artistically sensitive.
If I ever taught that course again, I'd chuck most of the book and supplement it with other material.
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#98016
03/15/2003 8:38 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#98017
03/15/2003 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
speaking of Prairie Home Companion, check your schedules this weekend for the re-broadcast of the 2001 Talent from Towns Under Two-Thousand broadcast. I was singing with a group called "Celestial Sirens". we didn't win(never compete against children-especially very talented children!), but we had a blast!
formerly known as etaoin...
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#98018
03/15/2003 1:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Ah, thanks, Faldage! I didn't know there was a script available. We listened to a tape I had of the show--very comical to hear those voices. The kids in the class had already pegged Oedipus (in their way of thinking he was dense for missing the obvious) as a comic character, so they were well-primed for a parody.
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#98019
03/15/2003 3:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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eta, I heard on the ads for the upcoming PHC that an early-music ensemble from Vermont would be one of the contestants, and I idly wondered if it might be y'all. I don't remember if I heard the program in 2001, but it doesn't matter because I can hear it again knowing that I know (sort of) one of the singers!
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#98020
03/16/2003 9:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
"The book. Oh, heaven, save us, the book! There were some fine examples of literature, but the short stories from other nations? Thin. Very. Infantile language. Too obvious moral points being made."
I'm a strong relativist, but one observation I've made is the tendency among the more shallow relativists to insist that somehow all cultures are equal or have made or are capable of making equal contributions. So any inane drivel is just as artistic as Shakespeare, any ignorant diatribe is just as important as Plato, any loose fancy is as important as Newton or Archimedes.
What a condescending bunch of yahoos it is who serves up a splatter of thin gruel and calls it dinner. I think some of these people through religious conviction that all cultures are equivalent assert that anything anyone has to say in those cultures is somehow equivalent - completely oblivious (even if one buys in to the current slogans that all are equal) that they don't share all of the same strengths. Discernment is equated with bigotry and ethnocentrism, judgement with prejudice.
k
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#98021
03/16/2003 9:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 6,296 |
For the record, I have learned that our county is culling out the anthology in question, thank goodness. The course built around that anthology is not being taught in all high schools, according to one English teacher with whom I spoke about the course.
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#98022
03/17/2003 3:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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That's good.
Here's an idea, though, and it may be a lot more work than it's worth. I guess I thought you were mainly a music teacher, so maybe the teaching language business is a sideline and this is a little much to do for a sideline, but it's an idea.
When I was teaching advanced fortran in college, the book was really, really bad. In the advanced class one learned a lot of stuff, algorithms, methodologies, but also a lot of machine and compiler dependent stuff. Unfortunately, the textbook they were using was out of date - even on the old computer they had just ditched. The text was $80 (really a lot in those days when the average book was $20 to $30). I told the students they shouldn't buy it (this is an abbreviated version of this story). Instead I taught from my own notes that I culled from 1) my own texts and 2) my own coding experiences.
So if you have an interest in this sort of thing, you might consider going beyond the textbook, trying to find things that you personally enjoy. The web will surely make this a lot easier to look into. If you get sucked into doing that thing again, you'll have some broader base to draw upon. Anyway, that's what you could do if you had a lot of extra time on your hands and didn't have a different career in music to keep you occupied.
k
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