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Here's an intriguing read for the LOTR set. Reactions?

http://makeashorterlink.com/?K39E156A3



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I think it reads like a good bit of advertising for this Wilhelm fellow and his "school".



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To borrow from Fawlty Towers, this guy should be on Mastermind - specialist subject: The bleeding obvious. Tolkien never made any secret of his use of ancient mythic patterns. The whole point of his work was to give Briain its own mythology, and he acknowledged that his work was patterned after the sagas and epics of other cultures, especially the Finnish Kalevala (sp?) Congrats to Prof. Wilhelm for making money by setting up seminars to tell people what they coud found out themselves by reading any halfway decent Tokien bio, or even his own "Unfinished Works", collated and edited by his son, Christopher.


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I once read an interesting essay on LOTR that pointed out, among other things, that it was unusual in that the main protagonist is one of the smallest, meekest characters in a world of heroic creatures, and his main quest is to abdicate power rather than to obtain it. I can't remember where I saw it though.


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I saw a related story of interest. LOTR was ranked #1 by editors of the Science Fiction Book Club as the most significant fantasy or sci-fi book of the past 50 years [huge shock /sarcasm]. The rest of the list can be found at http://www.usatoday.com/life/books/news/2003-03-02-tolkien-side_x.htm.


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Thanks, Alex! Here's the Top 50 SF/Fantatsy list from the last 50 years from the Science Fiction Book Club site http://sfbc

The Most Significant SF & Fantasy Books of the Last 50 Years, 1953-2002


1. The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien
2. The Foundation Trilogy, Isaac Asimov
3. Dune, Frank Herbert
4. Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert A. Heinlein
5. A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula K. Le Guin
6. Neuromancer, William Gibson
7. Childhood's End, Arthur C. Clarke
8. Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Philip K. Dick
9. The Mists of Avalon, Marion Zimmer Bradley
10. Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury
11. The Book of the New Sun, Gene Wolfe
12. A Canticle for Leibowitz, Walter M. Miller, Jr.
13. The Caves of Steel, Isaac Asimov
14. Children of the Atom, Wilmar Shiras
15. Cities in Flight, James Blish
16. The Colour of Magic, Terry Pratchett
17. Dangerous Visions, edited by Harlan Ellison
18. Deathbird Stories, Harlan Ellison
19. The Demolished Man, Alfred Bester
20. Dhalgren, Samuel R. Delany
21. Dragonflight, Anne McCaffrey
22. Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card
23. The First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, Stephen R. Donaldson
24. The Forever War, Joe Haldeman
25. Gateway, Frederik Pohl
26. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, J.K. Rowling
27. The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Douglas Adams
28. I Am Legend, Richard Matheson
29. Interview with the Vampire, Anne Rice
30. The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. Le Guin
31. Little, Big, John Crowley
32. Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
33. The Man in the High Castle, Philip K. Dick
34. Mission of Gravity, Hal Clement
35. More Than Human, Theodore Sturgeon
36. The Rediscovery of Man, Cordwainer Smith
37. On the Beach, Nevil Shute
38. Rendezvous with Rama, Arthur C. Clarke
39. Ringworld, Larry Niven
40. Rogue Moon, Algis Budrys
41. The Silmarillion, J.R.R. Tolkien
42. Slaughterhouse-5, Kurt Vonnegut
43. Snow Crash, Neal Stephenson
44. Stand on Zanzibar, John Brunner
45. The Stars My Destination, Alfred Bester
46. Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein
47. Stormbringer, Michael Moorcock
48. The Sword of Shannara, Terry Brooks
49. Timescape, Gregory Benford
50. To Your Scattered Bodies Go, Philip Jose Farmer

To drop John Wyndham's The Day of the Triffids from this list of most significant modern SF because it misses the cut by just 2 years (1951) seems to me an injustice, but since it's always been one of my personal favorites maybe I'm just quibbling.

I also would liked to have seen Ray Bradbury's The Illustrated Man there, a finer collection of thematic SF/Fantasy short stories has never been written, and it set the benchmark for the form, IMO.


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The Left Hand of Darkness is one of my favorite books. I thought LeGuin's constructed myths for the people on that ice planet (I forget the names) were pretty cool and packed a Jungian punch to them.

Has anyone here ever read any Phillip K. Dick? I never have but I get the feeling that once I get around to it I will really enjoy his books.


#97397 03/03/2003 7:36 PM
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I did, just recently! We discovered (or maybe Faldage already knew, I forget) that he wrote the short story on which the movie "Minority Report" was based. I liked it OK; I'm just not as much into sci-fi as I was in my younger years.


#97398 03/03/2003 9:02 PM
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It struck me a bit odd to see Nevil Shute's On the Beach (which I loved) on a SF/Fantasy list. I always put it in that Cold War "what if they push the button" genre along with Failsafe, Red Alert, etc. Never really thought of it as SF.

And I dunno about Starship Troopers as a second choice for Heinlein. I'd have to go with Time Enough for Love, which I think belongs on the list anyway. I can think of other Heinleins I'd replace Starship Troopers with...The Time Tunnel for one.


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Yet, #11-50 are alphabetized, so I just don't feel good about *thier top 10 because of that...


#97400 03/04/2003 10:59 PM
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Yeah, moose, I noticed that too. So. Show of hands? I know fer shure I've read 16 of these, with another 6 as possibles. There may be a few more that escaped the memory files, not for not being memorable, but just because that's the way I am. I don't know how many times I've re-purchased a book because I knew I liked the author, only to find that I already owned it


#97401 03/04/2003 11:14 PM
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21 for me. several more I've always thought about reading...



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#97402 03/05/2003 4:16 AM
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23 plus 2 maybes.

Bingley


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#97403 03/05/2003 11:58 AM
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28 maybe 29.

A good list, who would we add if we forgot about the last 50 years and just went back as far as we could?

As a start, how about, in no special order:

The Time Machine, HG Wells
The First Men in the Moon, Jules Verne
The Worm Ouroboros, ER Eddison
The Well at the World's End, William Morris
The Mabinogion, ?



#97404 03/05/2003 12:31 PM
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Frankenstein.


#97405 03/05/2003 3:13 PM
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Yes, I was thinking about that, dxb...I'm an H.G. Wells aficionado. And since you brought it to my attention, moose, I do think it's odd to see the list alphatized??

But some other books I'd mention in an overview would be:

1. Brave New World, Aldous Huxley
2. The War of the Worlds, The Island of Dr. Moreau, The Invisible Man, The Food of the Gods, H. G. Wells
3. The Martian Chronicles, Ray Bradbury
4. Colossus [author?], the first great cyber novel about a giant computer developing Artifical Intelligence and taking over the world.
5. Erewhon, Samuel Butler
6. The Sirens of Titan, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
7. The Lost World, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
8. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Jules Verne
9. Dracula, Bram Stoker

And what about The Hobbit? Or is that inferringly included with the trilogy? If not, I'd rather see The Hobbit on the list than The Silmarillion.

And I know some folks have mixed feelings about Michael Crichton, and view him somewhat askance as more pop than SF...but I really think Jurassic Park belongs on that list.



#97406 03/05/2003 9:54 PM
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In reply to:

20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, Jules Verne


I agree. Did you know that this book features a description of a giant squid, complete with beak, and was published before giant squids were known to the scientific community? (They were probably known anecdotally by sailors.) The bodies of giant squids were subsequently discovered and were found to indeed have huge, powerful beaks. As far as I know, to this day no one has ever captured a living giant squid.


#97407 03/06/2003 1:08 AM
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> If not, I'd rather see The Hobbit on the list than The Silmarillion.


Thereby revealing yourself to be no true tolkieniac.
I love The Silmarillion, and have read it several times, while I have never been able to get through The Hobbit since initially reading it when I was seven.


#97408 03/06/2003 1:13 AM
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tolkieniac?

No, truth be told, I embarked upon The Silmarillion 3 times and could never get through it.


#97409 03/06/2003 11:18 AM
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Apparently Buddy who finally found a carcass and proved the squid's existence was a prof at my university (Memorial University of Newfoundland). His name was Fred Aldrich. They've named all sorts of scholarships and conferences after him. Just had to wave the flag a little!


#97410 03/06/2003 12:13 PM
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I'd rather see The Hobbit on the list than The Silmarillion.

I would go along with that, but The Hobbit doesn't fit the rules for the first list; it was first published in 1937. You can add it to the second list.

I would want to add to the second list:

The First Book of Lankhmar, Fritz Leiber although this is a collection of short stories originally published separately.

Without Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar, Terry Pratchett's Ankh Morpork might not have existed.



#97411 03/06/2003 1:11 PM
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thirty (30) for sure..
-joe (Heinlein's) Friday

#97412 03/06/2003 2:57 PM
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36 for me.



TEd
#97413 03/06/2003 3:09 PM
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Thirty-five that I'm sure of. Does having read Dahlgren count for more than one?


#97414 03/06/2003 3:35 PM
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>Does having read Dahlgren count for more than one?

well, it should.

and no thanks for pointing out the alphabetizing. I was at least somewhat happy in my conceit that Book of the New Sun, which is one of my top ten regardless of genre, at least came 11th.



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