#96040
02/18/2003 6:40 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 20
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 20 |
Near vermilion,ones get stained red;Near ink,ones get stained black
I'm a Hong Konger,well..When i wrote my essay,my Australian teacher said it's "Chinese English"
well..I ain't native speaker so that i really can't make a justification but i just wanna know if it's so-called" Chinese English".I bet many of you guys here could give very good advice.THANKS !!
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#96041
02/18/2003 6:54 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The problem is there is nothing to tell you what "ones" refers to. Making it singular ("Near vermilion, one gets stained red; near ink, one gets stained black") would help. In very formal language we can use "one" to mean something like "the typical person", but this only works in the singular. "Ones" must have an obvious plural antecedent -- something already mentioned that "ones" refers to.
As to whether this is a typical mistake of Chinese speakers, I couldn't say.
Bingley
Bingley
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#96042
02/18/2003 1:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Perhaps using "people" instead of "ones" would be better.
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#96043
02/18/2003 1:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Or fingers. It could be one's fingers that get stained.
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#96044
02/18/2003 2:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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to make things more confusing, i would never use the term vermilion for red ink!
the ink might be vermilion (red), but generally in US, one speaks of red ink -- in accounting red ink is sometimes used to record a loss, so businesses in financial trouble are sometimes said to be "swimming in red ink".
in the context, it was quite clear that vermilion meant red ink, but i would not generally substitute one for the other in commonly spoken english.
Still one of the joys of english is is flexibility. I am sure everyone understood the statement, but i suspect most would agree with me, in saying they have nevered used the word vermilion (by itself!) to mean red ink.
the use of red ink might be implied, ("the vermilion lettering stood out", but if asked about them, most would say the vermilion letters on the page were made with red ink, not that they were made with vermilion.
vermillion is used almost exclusively as a color (a specific shade of dark red).
likewise, it might be "as dark as midnight" (very dark!) but to describe the sky or ceiling, we would say the ceiling was painted midnight blue.--making it very clear that 'midnight' in the second sample is a color.
It was as dark as midnight when we entered and the flashlight did little to break the darkness, though it did help us find a light switch. Even with the lights on, the room remained very somber. There was very little reflected light; the walls were covered with books and the ceiling was painted a midnight blue.
anding to all this confusing, there are exceptions! (but of course, i can't think of any right now...
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#96045
02/18/2003 2:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear of troy: to tease you gently, what color is "midnight blue"? It looks rather black to me.
Dear suededevil: I wonder if the "parable" you are quoting is a translation from Chinese.
I cannot think of a way to say it without it being a bit awkward. The boys who worked
as assistants to printers were called "printer's devils" because they got ink on their faces
from carelessness, as well as on their hands.
The only such "parable" I can remember was told by a speaker at my Highschool
graduation. To warn us that we should not associate with bad people, he said: "If you
lie down with dogs, you'll get up with fleas."
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#96046
02/18/2003 6:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
Suede gets high marks for using ain't though. Now we'll have to introduce the term y'all. Jackie, would you care to have the honors?
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#96047
02/18/2003 6:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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suede
just as a pointless aside, I've been reading suededevil as 'sue-de-devil'
-tsue-em :)
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#96048
02/18/2003 7:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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sue-de-devil
Ha! I knew I wasn't the only one.
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#96049
02/18/2003 8:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#96050
02/18/2003 8:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Ah-ite. Were y'all interpreting sue as a name or a verb?
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#96051
02/18/2003 8:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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formerly known as etaoin...
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#96052
02/18/2003 8:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#96053
02/18/2003 10:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#96054
02/18/2003 11:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2 |
...a pseudonym, if you please, and unless the bearer chooses to explain it our interpretations say more about us than about the owner :-)
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#96055
02/19/2003 12:03 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,661 |
I've heard "A boy named Sue" more than I've spoke to "A girl named Sue", but, so. (er.. should that be "so, but."?)
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#96056
02/19/2003 12:49 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Me three!
Me four!
And I was taking it as a verb....akshually.
But Suede Devil is also rather good, isn't it?
Very nifty moniker, any way you read it, sez I!
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#96057
02/19/2003 1:10 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
i would never use the term vermilion for red ink
Nor would I, but isn't vermilion also the name of a red dye? That was certainly the way I took it.
Bingley
Bingley
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#96058
02/19/2003 1:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Anatomy books call the lips vermilion. The etymology would not make osculation more
appealing. The root is said to be "vermis" = worm.
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#96059
02/19/2003 2:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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how'sa bout sueded evil? with, like, fringe or sumpthin'...
formerly known as etaoin...
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#96060
02/19/2003 9:24 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
The boys who worked as assistants to printers were called "printer's devils" because they got ink on their faces from carelessness, as well as on their hands.
Thanks for this story, wwh.
Suededevil. I first read it as "Sue, de devil," but later realized Sue was male, not female, so I began to read it as "Suede Devil," but had no idea what "suede devil" might be. After all, as wwh has pointed out, there were printers' devils, so perhaps there could be counterparts in the preparation of suede.
But I like this sue as verb proposition--I like the idea of "Sue the devil."
I hope Suede will explain the name.
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#96061
02/19/2003 11:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 20
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 20 |
wow hey guys! I never predict that I've been plunged into controversy.Hey i feel so honored, for real haha
Well "Sue da devil" ,ur interpretation is really creative
I appreciate u very much.
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#96062
02/19/2003 3:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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re: isn't vermilion also the name of a red dye?
yes, i think so, (see more in next post, in responce to Dr Bill) but red ink is also used in China (and in Japan) for offical documents.
the "chop"-- a peice of carved caligraphy, that is commonly used as a signature, (an anglasized name, closer to the chinese name of what i call a chop was discussed-- but i forget the term.) Most usually, signatures are inked in red, to signify they are names. (just as red ink was used in religious text calendars to signify special holy days.)
It makes me wonder about the meaning of the adage, since red is also a lucky color... does it mean that those who work with the clients (and their red inked signatures) are more likely to be lucky in business (as opposed to those who work with the black ink inventory and billing?)
tell us more you suede devil!
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#96063
02/19/2003 3:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear of troy: your red holy days on calendar, reminds me of phrase "red letter day" meaning
news of some propitious event.
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#96064
02/19/2003 4:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 161
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 161 |
translating a proverb is a daunting task. it rarely works because there is always an English proverb of approximately same meaning, a foreigner doesn't know it and it is not easy for a native speaker to associate your translation with one.
for example, I and my boss were discussing something and I told him that there is a Russian saying
Do not try to divide the skin of a bear, which is not killed yet
(a word to word translation).
A couple of days later he returned the saying
Do not skin a bear that is not killed...
P.S. I though that the nick was sure devil
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#96065
02/19/2003 5:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Do not skin a bear that is not killed...
Never heard this before; and doesn't sound like colloquial English. One "translation" I can offer is "Don't count your chickens before they're hatched."
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#96066
02/19/2003 5:10 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 161
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 161 |
yes, that what I mean by an English proverb equal to the one in a foreign language. but there is a Russian saying about chikens too, so "the bear story" is different.
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#96067
02/19/2003 5:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
I reckon the moral of the bear proverb relates to the danger associated with trying to divide the skin of a bear while it is still alive! Off hand I can't think of an English equivalent that has quite the same frisson.
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#96068
02/19/2003 5:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What's the Russian one about chickens?
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#96069
02/19/2003 5:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Re:The etymology would not make osculation more
appealing. The root is said to be "vermis" = worm.
several different terms for red are rooted in the "vermis" root... Many red dyes were first extracted from the boiled shells of insects. ---Just as lacquer is. (and it too has a redish tone.)
nowdays there are several red words that go back to the same root. (but all my dictionaries are still in storage.... its driving me crazy!)
carnilion is another 'red' red word, the front half from carn(e) -flesh, and the back have from vermilion!
red food coloring used to made from the same boiled insect shells... but now days, the most common red dye is red dye #2, which is a coal tar extract. (mmm, coal tar! drool... as Homer Simpson might say!)
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#96070
02/19/2003 5:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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good point, dxb! (putting on thinking cap...)
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#96071
02/19/2003 5:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear dxb : much less hazardous, Mrs. Beaton's cookbook advice: "First catch your hare...."
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#96072
02/19/2003 6:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear wwh: We don't want no splitting hares on this board!
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#96073
02/19/2003 6:13 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>We don't want no splitting hares on this board!
but some days it seems that's all we got..
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#96074
02/19/2003 7:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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At least no nare krishnas.
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#96075
02/19/2003 8:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
Speaking of devils, where does the Blue Devil come from, of Duke University fame (or infamy, I should say, since I am a Kentucky fan)? Here in Lexington the mascot of Henry Clay High School is also the Blue Devils. I just wonder where the concept came from.
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#96076
02/19/2003 9:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Alex: my guess is that when Duke U was organizing its football team, they either
knew or found out what colors their pontential opponents had alread adopted, and
chose blue, which presumably had not yet been chosen by another nearby college..
Of course the smoke from their principal benefactor's tobacco was blue. Well, sort of.
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#96078
02/20/2003 1:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Nice find Jackie : even using your post for clues, I couldn't find that site again.
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#96079
02/20/2003 1:56 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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