#95385
02/13/2003 3:40 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Much debate has been occasioned on another board I frequent by the expression wrack/rack and ruin. The conclusion was that the version with w was preferred by USns and the version without w was preferred elsewhere but that either was acceptable anywhere.
Any comments from the floor?
Bingley
Bingley
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#95386
02/13/2003 10:07 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wrack and ruin. That's how I'd spell the phrase.
Here are some interesting definitions of the verb "to rack" since I use the phrase "racked my brain" occasionally:
"1 : to torture on the rack
2 : to cause to suffer torture, pain, or anguish
3 a : to stretch or strain violently <racked his brains> b : to raise (rents) oppressively c : to harass or oppress with high rents or extortions
4 : to work or treat (material) on a rack
5 : to work by a rack and pinion or worm so as to extend or contract <rack a camera>
6 : to seize (as parallel ropes of a tackle) together
7 : to place (as pool balls) in a rack
intransitive senses : to become forced out of shape or out of plumb"
From MW online.
Favorite definition of rack as a noun: a mass of usually broken-up wind driven clouds
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#95387
02/13/2003 11:19 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The hopelessly descriptive AHD2 makes no mention of rack in its definition of wrack. It lists, as its fourth entry for rack, [Variant of WRACK]
AHD4 says wrack, also rack.
with w was preferred by USns and the version without w was preferred elsewhere
And y'all accuse *us of Reader's Digest Spelling©!
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#95388
02/13/2003 11:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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My personal view is that a rack is a framework and I would use that spelling in expressions having that connection such as ‘racked with pain’ because this use derives from the torture rack which is a framework. The expression 'nerve-racking' also conveys the idea of nerves stretched to breaking point. Wrack, however, I would relate to wrecking, breaking up and tearing apart. So I would use ‘wrack and ruin’ and ‘wreak havoc’.
In WW's Favorite definition of rack as a noun: a mass of usually broken-up wind driven clouds I would spell that as 'wrack'. If it described a sky with a series of bar shaped clouds with blue sky in between, such as you sometimes see, I would spell that 'rack' due to its resemblence to a rack or grid.
That is just my approach, I'm sure other logic could be applied. I don’t think it matters very much that the two spellings are used with no particular consistency. The context mostly sorts out the meaning.
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#95389
02/13/2003 11:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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AHD2 lists wrack as a variant of rack in reference to clouds. It defines it as a thin mass of wind-driven clouds.
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#95390
02/13/2003 12:18 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well, ain't that jus' the cat's pajamas!
We US'ns spell the verb wrack and the cloudy noun rack (usually), and the cross-ponders go counterclockwise or clockwise to US, depending upon your point of view...
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#95391
02/13/2003 1:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Don't take me as being typical of cross-pond thinking in this! I stressed it was personal. Never bothered to figure out what others were doing.
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#95392
02/13/2003 1:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#95393
02/13/2003 1:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Blow winds blow! Wreak wrack Wreck and ruin.
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#95394
02/13/2003 1:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Oh dear, there we were, YARTing away happily and unknowingly. As usual, Jackie had trod there ahead of us.  Sorry Jackie.
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#95395
02/13/2003 1:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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While I highly approve of Faldage's bringing back Jackie's post, I deplore the suggestion
that an apology is required for having overlooked something a year old.
And it appears that few of you noticed my post about "vraic". Boohoohoo!
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#95396
02/13/2003 1:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Jackie brought her own thread back, so I felt she might be making a point. Ironic innit.
I did read the 'vraic' posts, but the reference to wrack and vraic being connected was kind of an aside ( jumpers were the main issue as I recall ) so didn't stick. Rather a coincidence there though.
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#95397
02/13/2003 1:53 PM
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Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Mercy me, I have run my mouth so much that you newer people could hardly help bringing up some of the same things, Honey. I don't mind a bit. I just remembered looking it up and being so shocked that...(I can hardly believe it now) rack and ruin is actually correct.
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#95398
02/13/2003 2:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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rack and ruin is actually correct.
What!? Do I gots to go back and reread that whole thread? How did we come to this little bit of linguistic revisionism?
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#95399
02/13/2003 2:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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From my post of 2001 (I added the bolding): "The second wrack refers to wreckage cast ashore, but it is also a verb meaning “to cause the ruin of, wreck.” Thus a business can be wracked by stiff competition. Both of these wrack s have rack as an acceptable spelling variant, so a business can also be racked by competition, and the reader can never be sure if the business is in a state of metaphorical torment or if it is ruined—and in truth it may be both"
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#95400
02/13/2003 2:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Faldage,
Jackie simply meant that the variant, rack and ruin, is also correct.
But I'd side against the variant simply because wrack and ruin makes me think of a ship wreck.That w carries a lot of weight.
And, yes, Jackie, I did read your post above, but I wanted to re-emphasize the point that 'rack and ruin' is an acceptable variant here in the U.S.
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#95401
02/13/2003 2:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wait a minute; nerve-racking is "correct" but wrack and ruin is "correct".
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#95402
02/13/2003 2:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
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I think its just generally an acceptable variant. Comes down to personal preference or whim in the end. Logic lies in the mind of the thinker.
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#95403
02/13/2003 2:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
but wrack and ruin is "correct".
Well, yes. Obviously.
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#95404
02/13/2003 2:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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It was Jackie's rack and ruin is actually correct (italics mine) that led me to believe that she was suggesting that wrack and ruin was incorrect.
I maintain that something's being an acceptable variant does not make it "correct".
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#95405
02/13/2003 2:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What is "correct"? asked jesti;ng Pilate, and did not stay for answer.
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#95406
02/13/2003 2:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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And I'm with you, Faldage. I'll stick with 'wrack and ruin'--and remember that Jackie's pasted definition has reminded us that 'rack and ruin' is an 'acceptable variant.' The language: In flux, drifting and blown like a rack across the sky and, in some frowning minds, a by-product of wrack and ruin...
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