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May I further asume that because exiting the gourd was extremely difficult, it was referred to as the gourdian knot?
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May I further asume that because exiting the gourd was extremely difficult, it was referred to as the gourdian knot?
Since you mention it, King Gordius actually stole the knot from a Persian Boy Scout troop that went on a camping trip to Phrigia.
Monarchs, what can you do?
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Monarchs? Oh. Hmmmm.... If a king has a unilateral orchidotomy is he a monorch?
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Historical records show that in the late 1700s a family by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Edmund Quordlepleen set off from Southampton on a voyage to Captain Cook's glorious new land.
Well, then. That explains how the name came into being and arrived on our formerly fair shores. A very detailed and quite plausible explanation. Who do I sue?
But since Max's nominal progenitor was/is/will be found at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe for some of the day, and at the Big Bang Burger Bar for the rest of it, those damned Swedo/Scottish inventors must have done better than they thought. They either discovered new laws of Einsteinian physics to ignore, or they genetically engineered Douglas Adams. The former is more plausible than the latter, because no amount of halfway believable genetic tinkering could ever come up with a Douglas Adams.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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But since Max's nominal progenitor was/is/will be found at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe for some of the day, and at the Big Bang Burger Bar for the rest of it
From another left-hander and Arsenal fan (breedng will out):
The Restaurant at the End of the Universe is one of the most
extraordinary ventures in the entire history of catering. It has
been built on the fragmented remains of ... it will be built on
the fragmented ... that is to say it will have been built by this
time, and indeed has been -
One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that
of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no
problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a
broadminded and well-adjusted family can't cope with. There is
also no problem about changing the course of history - the course
of history does not change because it all fits together like a
jigsaw. All the important changes have happened before the things
they were supposed to change and it all sorts itself out in the
end.
The major problem is quite simply one of grammar, and the main
work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time
Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you
for instance how to describe something that was about to happen
to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward
two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described
differently according to whether you are talking about it from
the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the
further future, or a time in the further past and is further
complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations whilst
you are actually travelling from one time to another with the
intention of becoming your own father or mother.
Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified
Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up:
and in fact in later editions of the book all the pages beyond
this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.
The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy skips lightly over this
tangle of academic abstraction, pausing only to note that the
term "Future Perfect" has been abandoned since it was discovered
not to be.
QuiteEnoughDone
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From another left-hander and Arsenal fan (breedng will out):
And what was I saying about improbable advances in genetic engineering?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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..it all fits together like a jigsawA jigsaw with an infinite number of identically shaped square pieces that fit together in (infinite squared) ways.. 
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In some cases, yes, but not the sort of queen who would have penned The Hitch Hiker's Guide to The Galactopoietic.
Strange
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From a logical point of view what the barber does to men who do not shave themselves has no bearing on what he does to those who do shave themselves.
Sample syllogism:
All crows are black. (All men who do not shave themselves are shaved by the barber)
My black cat is not a crow. (The barber is not a man who does not shave himself)
Therefore my black cat is not black. (Therefore the barber does not shave himself)
which we can see is invalid.
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to all newbies/strangers whom it may concern:
by jumping into long threads and replying without providing some context (via 'quote', cut/paste, etc.), you tend to confuse us poor folk who read this stuff in flat mode. thank you for your kind attention.
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In reply to:
by jumping into long threads and replying without providing some context (via 'quote', cut/paste, etc.), you tend to confuse us poor folk who read this stuff in flat mode. thank you for your kind attention.
Thanks for the heads up, tsuwm
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Hi Faldage
You said:
From a logical point of view what the barber does to men who do not shave themselves has no bearing on what he does to those who do shave themselves.
This is absolutely correct, and none of us pointed it out. Yet I remember quite clearly a genuinely logical paradox in the barber scenario, and realised that Emanuela statment of the problem left unstates something that we all considered implicit in the case:
The barber not only shaves all who don't shave themselves, but also only shaves those who do not shave themselves. It's the only that makes the difference because (apart from the 'riddle' answer of the barber being a woman, or someone not needing shaving) the barber is now constrained not to shave himself... and therefore to do so... and therefore to refrain... and so on
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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In reply to:
All rules have exceptions, including this one.
OK, please supply an example of an exception to the above stated rule.
Itself.
Or
Rule 1: The umpire is always right.
Rule 2: When the umpire is wrong, see Rule 1.
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Thanks shanks for "The barber not only shaves all who don't shave themselves, but also only shaves those who do not shave themselves."
I agree that the inclusion of the word "only" makes a big difference, but, in a larger sense, I must protest that a paradox is more a measure of our ignorance or sloppy thinking than it is a measure of the irrationality of a situation.
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but, in a larger sense, I must protest that a paradox is more a measure of our ignorance or sloppy thinking than it is a measure of the irrationality of a situation.
What about Godel's paradox, that leads to his incompleteness theorem. Nothing sloppy about his thinking. Nothing straightforward about Incompleteness.
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Another great perk for Cadillac owners, I assume.
But my real question is:
What do you have when you have the barber running around screaming, "Shave yourselves! Shave yourselves!"?
Answer:
The Saracens are at the gate.
Ted adroitly wraps two disparate threads together. If he does that enough he'll have enough rope to hang himself!
TEd
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>Ted adroitly wraps two disparate threads together. If he does that enough he'll have enough rope to hang himself!
but let's hope it doesn't all come unravelled on you in January... you'd feaze to death!
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In reply to:
What about Godel's paradox...
I have on order at my local bookstore a copy of a book that is supposed to be an exceptionally clear exposition of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Godel's Proof by Ernest Nagel. Perhaps after I have read it we can start a whole new thread. My present understanding of the incompleteness theorem does not interfere with my present beliefs on paradoxes.
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>
but let's hope it doesn't all come unravelled on you in January... you'd feaze to death!
Now would that be malfeazance or misfeazance?
TEd
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an exceptionally clear exposition of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Godel's Proof by Ernest Nagel
I gave this a try. Never finished it though.
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an exceptionally clear exposition of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Godel's Proof by Ernest Nagel
I gave this a try. Never finished it though.
Penrose, in The Emperor's new mind does a good job of explaining the incompleteness theorem (in my opinion), though he is a bit unsound when it comes to his theory of mind (again my opinion). And Douglas Hofstader does brilliantly in Godel, Escher, Bach: An eternal golden braid, though again, some of what he says about the mind is a bit dated (yes, the field has moved on considerably in twenty or so years).
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an exceptionally clear exposition of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Godel's Proof by Ernest Nagel
I gave this a try. Never finished it though.
Penrose: The Emperor's new mind... Douglas Hofstader: Godel, Escher, Bach: An eternal golden braid
I have the Hofstader tucked away somewhere in my efficient filing system. It is the source of my present incomplete understanding. I shall endeavour to find it and I will scope out the Penrose.
My present understanding is basically that any system of thought can produce statements like "this statement is a lie" and that, while these statements can be resolved by building some metasystem that includes the offending system as a subset, that metasystem will also be capable of generating similar statements. I take this to mean that we are not infinitely intelligent.
PS
According to Ænigma the book is Douglas Hog: Godfather, Escherichia, Bach: An eternal golden braid
PPS
I love Ænigma's correction of her own name.
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My present understanding is basically that any system of thought can produce statements like "this statement is a lie" and that, while these statements can be resolved by building some metasystem that includes the offending system as a subset, that metasystem will also be capable of generating similar statements.
In essence, yes.
I take this to mean that we are not infinitely intelligent.
Here I take exception. Godel showed, in principle, that even an 'infinitely intelligent' being (whatever that may be) could not utilise a logic system that was both consistent and complete (consistent in not giving rise to inherent falshoods - paradox's, complete in being able to prove every true statement within the system itself). It is not a limitation on intelligence, but upon the notion of logic, or reason, itself.
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It is not a limitation on intelligence, but upon the notion of logic, or reason, itself.
I suppose I think that if we were infinitely intelligent, or, better, we had some facility that was superior to intelligence (which I think is highly overrated), we would have something better than logic or reason to work with.
Just this Fool's slant on things.
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>According to Ænigma the book is Douglas Hog: Godfather, Escherichia, Bach: An eternal golden braid
escherichia?? that's a new level of enteric weirdness.
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escherichia?? that's a new level of enteric weirdness.
It's an enigma wrapped in a sausage skin stuffed into a turkey
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#9515
12/06/2000 10:05 PM
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I suppose I think that if we were infinitely intelligent, or, better, we had some facility that was superior to intelligence (which I think is highly overrated), we would have something better than logic or reason to work with.
There's always creativity. It seems to me that all jobs either require analytical intelligence or creativity, and usually some mix of both. Then there are the mind-numbingly robotic jobs like bean counting.
Then again, isn't creativity just a different type of intelligence?
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Is it so important to posit infinite intelligence? I read somewhere, and can't find any argument with, the idea that paradoxes are almost always due to incomplete information and that all apparent paradoxes are, by extrapolation, a product of ignorance.
This definition may have been overtaken either by better information - or infinite intelligence, of course!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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the idea that paradoxes are almost always due to incomplete information
I think this theory is based on incomplete information.
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So true, and not just in English. One of the reasons I switched from being a German major in college was I got fed up with hearing the word grundsätzlich (meaning basically) at least 3 or 4 times a minute in discussion.
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Mav opined: I think this theory is based on incomplete information.
And you have enough solid information to back that statement up? I think not!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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I think not!Inverted boasting? - never mind, we're friends here 
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#9521
12/07/2000 11:48 PM
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Descarte walked into an English pub, to be greeted by the bartender, who said to him, "Fancy a beer, guv?"
A wine drinker, Descarte pulled himself up to his full height and snarled, "I think NOT!" and promptly disappeared.
TEd
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TEd quoth Descarte walked into an English pub, to be greeted by the bartender, who said to him, "Fancy a beer, guv?"
A wine drinker, Descarte pulled himself up to his full height and snarled, "I think NOT!" and promptly disappeared.Preeeeeeeeeecisely! That joke was told to me many moons ago and I loved it so much I adopted the "I think NOT!" as a conscious affectation. TEd is the first person who has ever come up with the source. And, from "The Philosophers Song", "Descartes, Descartes was a boozy old fart/but not as sloshed as Schlagel!"
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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In reply to:
"I think NOT!" and promptly disappeared.
This is funny but it also demonstrates the fallacy of denying the antecedent.
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/deny.htm
It's still funny.
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"I think NOT!" and promptly disappeared.
This is funny but it also demonstrates the fallacy of denying the antecedent.
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/deny.htm
I have a headache!
wow
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The Philosophers Song
The verse I learned was, "Great Empedocles, to prove his soul, jumped into Aetna and was roasted whole."
And apropos of the barber paradox, seems to me that after all that heavy discussion, we could make very profitable use of Occam's razor.
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Thanks for the reference, tsuwm. There were several versions of this song sung by MP on tour. This doesn't mean that I'm saying my quote was correct, though. The best one was at a concert in LA. Idle was clearly right off his face on something very, very nice, because he went right through the show with a stupid smile on his face.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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