#9448
11/21/2000 10:38 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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That was clever wsieber, how did you make the link appear in a separate minimised screen? Or is it just a blip on my computer?
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Carpal Tunnel
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>...a separate minimised screen? Or is it just a blip on my computer?
must be the DTs from your former(?) addiction.
DTs?
Duplicated Threads?
Damnable Trends?
Dipsomaniacal Tippling??
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That was clever Hi Jo, That's an undeserved compliment, for once  . On my computer, all the links quoted in AWAD appear in separate Windows, when clicked...
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I think basically is a meaningless wordA classic indeed! And one which I'm very guilty of overusing in speech. But then everything went downhill from the first time I heard my voice on tape. Let alone when video cameras became commonplace. 
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In reply to:
Nothing Styx to you like a bad rep...
Except plaster of Paris, maybe?
Bingley
Bingley
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These slings and arrows (all well aimed - way below the belt, and the thigh, and the knee, and the shin...) have left me oedipus.
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Carpal Tunnel
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What'djuh cast a stone for, anyway?
Bingley
Bingley
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#9455
11/24/2000 10:11 AM
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If you've read the thread in Info and Announcements in which I proudly proclaim my philistinism, then perhaps the stone-throwing should be reversed...
of Gath
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I just finished reading Stranger in a Strange Land. Heinlein certainly believes in the use of meaningless words. I can't count the number of times that dialogue began with "Uh" or included words such as "huh?" or "eh?"
In the same book we are introduced to a word that has more meaning than most. Grok is a beautiful and extremely useful word. We should have included it in our discussion about words for knowledge (or was it there and I have forgotten?). I'd heard people use grok before, but I didn't grok grok fully until I read the book.
A more personal meaningless word that I find myself using is Neh. I can (and do) say neh and express anything from extreme pleasure to utter bafflement to acute dislike simply by changing my inflection, but the word itself is meaningless.
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The problem with a word like "grok" is that it is so tied to one novel, and the moment in culture when it was read, that its modern uses seems dated -- already. To say "grok" is to sew psychedlic daisies on one's blue jeans, to wear a roach clip in one's hair, to flip the peace sign and to listen to Jefferson Airplane. Peace and love, baby.
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Grok may have cultural implications, but not only the ones you suggest. My husband's computer-geek friends are extremely fond of the word. My first contact with it was on one of his daily websites (slashdot) where the word is used and understood by most of the users. I believe that I would be correct to say that most (but not all) of the slashdot readers are approximately my age (20-30ish) and were not available to read it during your flower power revolution. (i'm not a regular reader of slashdot, correct me if I have the demographic wrong.) Perhaps the word isn't quite as dated as you say, though still only used by a select cultural group.
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Driving around doing errands today. Radio on Maine Public Radio broadcast of address to National Press Club. I just caught a bit of it. Who was speaking heaven knows but he sounded authoritative. Anyway he was saying that words we take for granted as being around since time began are not really that old. He cited "Hello." According to speaker the word "hello" was made up as a telephone greeting that would be non-specific and neutral....after all what if a gentleman called on the phone and a lady answered ! Heavens! Remember that was the 1890s. The alternate proposed was "Ahoy!" The two men involved were Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Edison. I am unclear on exactly which man proposed which word but I think it was Bell for Hello and Edison for Ahoy!
Anyone have more? WOW
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#9461
11/28/2000 10:58 PM
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Ou resident etymythologist, Jazzoctopus, came up with a very good story regarding the origin of "hello."I think I have to add that title to by profile.  I liked my more recent essay on the origin of "point blank" more, but no one seemed to have anything to say about it.
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Got it, xara. The dictionary entry should read "Grok, v., (colloq. use limited to geeks and aged freaks)."
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coined by Heinlein in 1961, grok actually found its way into the 2nd edition of the OED, marked as U.S. slang:
a. trans. (also with obj. clause) To understand intuitively or by empathy; to establish rapport with. b. intr. To empathize or communicate sympathetically (with); also, to experience enjoyment.
therein are some fine citations, but I really enjoyed the last: 1984 InfoWorld 21 May 32 "There isn't any software! Only different internal states of hardware. It's all hardware! It's a shame programmers don't grok that better."
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the word "hello" was made up as a telephone greeting
I am totally gobsmacked by this, and am going for a little lie down.
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Maybe one of my wife's favorites comes into this category. If I'm going to bed before her, she will say, "Pull out the clock for (time)." This means, of course, pull out the little doohickey which turns on the alarm.
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To get back to the original subject of this thread, I propose a 4th category for what might be called "temporizing" words; i.e., some sound, if not a real word, which allows the speaker to gather his wits. Some illustrations:
1. Major Hoople, in the immortal comic "our Boarding House", was fond of "Fap!"
2. In a Dorothy Sayers novel set in Scotland, there is a Scottish policeman who is fond of "Aye, imphm."
3. In a detective novel, I forget which one, there is a character whose use of "Mmmf" constitutes half his dialog.
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In reply to:
If I'm going to bed before her, she will say, "Pull out the clock for (time)." This means, of course, pull out the little doohickey which turns on the alarm.
I think this is an example of synecdoche (using the part to refer to the whole or vice versa) than ellipsis.
Bingley
Bingley
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In reply to:
some sound, if not a real word, which allows the speaker to gather his wits
Um, I think they're called, errr, fillers or filled pauses.
Bingley
Bingley
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the word "hello" was made up as a telephone greeting
I am totally gobsmacked by this, and am going for a little lie down.
Me too. But I'm a bit suspicious as well. It sounds a lot like urban mythology. Does anyone have sources?
Also leads to words that are, technically, meaningless:
Goodbye - does anyone actually use it in the sense of 'god be with ye'?
Heck, darn...
Also, my two favourite invented names:
Wendy (J M Barrie - Peter Pan)
Lorna (Stephenson - Lorna Doone)
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Does anyone have sources?
Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: hel·lo
Pronunciation: h&-'lO, he-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hellos
Etymology: alteration of hollo
Date: 1889
: an expression or gesture of greeting -- used interjectionally in greeting, in answering the telephone, or to express surprise
and
Main Entry: hol·lo
Pronunciation: hä-'lO, h&-; 'hä-(")
Variant(s): also hol·loa /hä-'lO, h&-/; or hol·la /h&-'lä, 'hä-(")/
Function: interjection
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1588
1 -- used to attract attention (as when a fox is spied during a fox hunt)
2 -- used as a call of encouragement or jubilation
I think the latter derives from "holler".
Mind you, no telephone reference. And it begs the question, where did Bell get the word from if he did invent it? "Ahoy" is clear enough, but why change the first vowel in "hollo"?
Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Wendy was an invented name.
Certainly popular enough since, at least in England.
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Um, I think they're called, errr, fillers or filled pausesWell, indeed so, Bingley. But meaningful phrases can become fillers, as is the case with "Y'know?" and even "Yessss (but).."
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I think this is an example of synecdoche
Bingley, sir, you are absolutely priceless.
How much more lacking in clarity we would all be without your presence!
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Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Wendy was an invented name.Aren't they all?
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Does anyone have sources?
Merriam-Webster:
Main Entry: hel·lo
Pronunciation: h&-'lO, he-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural hellos
Etymology: alteration of hollo
Date: 1889
: an expression or gesture of greeting -- used interjectionally in greeting, in answering the telephone, or to express surprise
and
Main Entry: hol·lo
Pronunciation: hä-'lO, h&-; 'hä-(")
Variant(s): also hol·loa /hä-'lO, h&-/; or hol·la /h&-'lä, 'hä-(")/
Function: interjection
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1588
1 -- used to attract attention (as when a fox is spied during a fox hunt)
2 -- used as a call of encouragement or jubilation
Are you trying to discredit me?
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#9475
11/30/2000 11:35 PM
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Are you trying to discredit me?Well JazzO, I think I'm used to the Merriam-Webster layout enough to wrap it around a mythical definition if you want! One for April 1st, perhaps
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#9476
12/01/2000 12:01 AM
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One for April 1st, perhaps Good idea, let's get Jazz to ome up with an explanation for "hunting the gowk."
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#9477
12/01/2000 12:04 AM
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There was a time when most all names had a meaning. For example, if one traces my own name, Geoffrey, one goes back to the Germanic Gottfried, or "God's peace." Nowadays, how many of us actually relate our names to a character trait, a place, etc?
As for Shanks' reminding us that "Goodbye" meant "God be with ye," might not "hello" be derived from "hallow?" Some languages do invoke a diety, or a supposedly deific trait, in greeting. Conjecture, of course, but why not?
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#9478
12/01/2000 12:06 AM
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The Merriam brothers just aren't resourceful enough to find out the rest of the story. I have connections. Hammurabi, Ramses II, Socrates, Pompey, Hadrian, Chaucer, King James, Ben Franklin, Brahms and Churchill were all good friends of mine.
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The Merriam brothers just aren't resourceful enough to find out the rest of the story. I have connections. Jazz, as a favour to Geoff, would you mind posting the etymythology behind my surname? I'm sure your connexions will be happy to help.
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Nowadays, how many of us actually relate our names to a character trait, a place, etc?
Since I deem myself the resident Indo-anglophone, let me once again pull out the ol' Indian examples.
Virtually all Indian names have meanings - either related directly to a deity, or to some attribute. As I told Fisk (in an aside) "Shona" would mean 'golden'.
My own name translates as the Sun (the deity of, also often called Surya), and my surname is a signifier of the baronial caste (the traditional kshatriya or 'warrior' caste), hence my nom de plume.
As you rightly point out, even in English, most first names have some sort of significance. That's why I find Wendy and Lorna fascinating - they literally have no meaning.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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stranger
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I seem to recall, much of Mr. Bell's research started with a means to communicate with the hard of hearing.
I may be getting my historical figures maligned but I seem to remember that his mother was deaf or had hearing loss and amongst his other accomplishments was the development of a type of sign language that used gestures to simulate phonetic pronunciations.
This may account for his changing Hollo or Ahoy to Hello. Somewhat more distinctive.
perhaps
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Jazz, as a favour to Geoff, would you mind posting the etymythology behind my surname? I'm sure your connexions will be happy to help.
Certainly.
Perhaps they were ambitious; perhaps they were just exceedingly curious, but it is undeniable that they were ahead of their time. One wouldn't expect the 5th century shores of northern Sweden to be the site of an attempt at utopia, but it was indeed. A team of precocious inventors from Scotland made an exodus to Scandinavia in order to escape persecution for advancing science. The men, four of them, all suffered from acute manic depression and were detirminded to rid themselves of their affliction. They sought refuge in a small cave on the lee side of a fjord and began their work. They intended to create the perfect environment to escape their ailments.
After much debate as to how to go about their task, they began constructing a large, oblong, hollow sphere. It was carved out of rock and thoroughly covered with mud and moss. The end product, resembling something of a pumpkin or squash, was then lowered to the bottom of the Arctic Ocean. Apparati were made for the passage of air and other necessities to the sphere and the four made the submerged compartment their experimental home. In this state they claimed to be cured of their emotional distresses and thus named their spherical sanitorium "Gourd de la Spleen".
After a few years, the place became dilapidated and smelly. The inventors moved out and abandoned their work, but the memory of their grand, quixotic experiment will always live on because of a pact the four made to use the experiment's name as theirs.
Historical records show that in the late 1700s a family by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Edmund Quordlepleen set off from Southampton on a voyage to Captain Cook's glorious new land.
Capricious Piffle was brought to you today by strawberry cream cheese and smoked cod.
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"Gourd de la Spleen".Magnifique! In the words of the Bond theme song - Nobody does it better! Muito obrigado.
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Magnifique! In the words of the Bond theme song - Nobody does it better! Muito obrigado.
I'm pleased that you approve. But now everyone's going to want one.
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>Magnifique!
But now everyone's going to want one
Ah yes, truly the Prince of Etymythology!
Nah, JazzO, not everybody could have one, because in at least some cases (mine for instance) there would be no challenge.
Thinks: was that a subconscious 'bet you can't do me!' ??
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>The inventors moved out and abandoned their work,
But even fewer people know what happened to the structure. Torn apart, its pieces drifted around. One of them ended up in the Thames estuary, where a near-sighted otter thought it was a potential mate. The otter followed it out to sea and was run down by a hovercraft. The conclusion? One gourd, torn, deceives an otter.
But Jazz, your history of Quordlepleen deserves a kudos. Magnificent!!!!
TEd
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May I assume that once your relatives vacated their submarine structure, they coined the term, "out of your gourd?"
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