#94453
02/03/2003 7:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear slithy: now that we know what a "prebuttal" is, what's a "buttal"?
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#94454
02/03/2003 8:55 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Is actually a verb -- they guy who committed the crime always puts the serving tray together prior to the scene in which he's caught out. Hence he prebuttals the wine.
TEd
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#94455
02/03/2003 9:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
Since he gets caught in the end, perhaps that should be "prebuttals the whine?" Just asking 
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#94456
02/03/2003 9:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2 |
he prebuttals the wine
Not so far-fetched, that one. Isn't there a proverbial "butt of Malmsley"? I don't think that was simply to object of his jokes.
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#94457
02/03/2003 9:10 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2 |
he prebuttals the wineNot so far-fetched, that one. Isn't there a proverbial "butt of Malmsey"? I don't think that was simply to object of his jokes. [Edit: Sure there is. See http://www.bartleby.com/81/5386.html. (Now where's that list of old measures of volume? the Tun, the Magnum, the Hogshead, the Jereboam, and all those)]
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#94458
02/03/2003 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Wasn't one of the less popular Plantagenet kings drowned in a butt of Malmsey wine? Probably an Edward. Oh, all right then, maybe a Richard. No, an Edward, I think. IV or thereabouts.
- Pfranz
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#94459
02/03/2003 10:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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E. Cobham Brewer 1810–1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898.
Drowned in a Butt of Malmsey.
George, Duke of Clarence, being allowed to choose by what death he would die, chose
drowning in malmsey wine (1477). See the continuation of Monstrelet, 196; Fulgosus, ix. 12;
Martin du Bellais’s Memoirs (year 1514).
1
Admitting this legend to be an historic fact, it is not unique: Michael Harslob, of Berlin, wished
to meet death in a similar way in 1571, if we may credit the inscription on his tomb:—
“In cyatho vini pleno cum musca periret,
Sic, ait Oeneus, sponte perire velim.”
“When in a cup of wine a fly was drowned,
So, said Vinarius, may my days be crowned.”
2
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#94460
02/04/2003 12:54 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2 |
Bartleby agrees. See above.
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#94461
02/04/2003 7:05 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Pick, pick, pick. It was Richard III's brother, the Duke of Clarence. Well, at least I got the period right. Edward IV reigned from 1461-70 and from 1471-83!
- Pfranz
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#94462
02/04/2003 2:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
In trying to find for which of his many crimes George, Duke of Clarence got a surfeit of with Malmsey, I found this site, which is well worth browsing but tantalingly tattles not what the Duke's ultimaate crime was. http://abc.interserver.net/menu.html
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#94463
02/04/2003 5:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320 |
Shakespeare has it that Richard had Clarence murdered simply because Clarence is his older brother, therefore standing between him and the throne.
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#94464
02/04/2003 5:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2 |
I do believe Shakespears's version of Richard III has been well and truly debunked, many times over. See Josephine Tey's Daughter of Time for one sparkling example.
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#94465
02/04/2003 5:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Slithy may well have it right. Clarence was a bumbler and an extremely bad picker of sides to be on in family feuds. He managed to annoy almost the entire Plantagenet family, but it was Edward IV, his elder brother, rather than Richard III, his younger brother who decided enough was enough. He was attainted for high treason - one of those gloriously vague charges in late mediaeval law - which may or may not have implied that he'd had a go at bumping Edward off during that unfortunate little incident in 1470. You'll remember it well, I'm sure, Bill.
George appeared to lack both common sense and common courtesy. Deadly sins, both, in a mediaeval court as volatile as Ted and Rick's, surely! He interefered in the business of the law courts to his own advantage (a practice called "maintenance") on such a regular basis that the King was probably rather peeved with him. It could have been this which led directly to his arrest, attainder, incareration in the Tower and his eventually involuntarily drinking himself to death. Was Malmsey wine any good? You shouldn't drown your rellies in just any old rubbish, should you?
But it was certainly Edward rather than Richard who orchestrated his demise. Richard wasn't trusted by either of his elder brothers, and quite rightly, although you should remember that the story of Richard III was written during Tudor times. He wasn't exactly going to get good press, was he? Especially not from Bill the Scrivener, who was (God only knows why) a full-time Tudor-booster.
- Pfranz
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#94466
02/05/2003 3:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Parm me, Pfranz, but wasn't it Thos. More who was the first to do the deed on Richie Threeth for his Tudor master, Hank the Fat? I thought Willie Shaxper picked up his history from More.
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#94467
02/05/2003 9:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Yeahbut, Bob, but while More slagged Dick the Turd formally, i.e. developed the official party (Dick was truly Darstardly) line, it was Billy the Scribbler's play which put the final nail in his reputation's coffin in the public mind. Remember, hardly anyone could actually read ... official documents, however nicely written, were just gobbledygook to most people, even if they'd had access to them. I think I read somewhere that Henry Tudor had a list of Richard's crimes read out in churches as a kind of post-hoc justification for being yet another, if unusually successful, Welsh rebel.
- Pfranz
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