#94211
02/06/2003 6:06 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, all I've heard and seen would seem to support the intitial foam/tile damage on takeoff theory...but, evidently, they're backing off on that one now.
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#94212
02/06/2003 7:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Just a mention from the essay...we went from Kitty Hawk to the Moon in just 66 years!...just think about that... It's Time to Dream Higherhttp://makeashorterlink.com/?T2FA62E53
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#94213
02/07/2003 5:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Yep, I agree with him. The current policy of pottering about in LEO gives no one anything worth the constant risks of getting there and back. Mars or bust, I say! Would they need someone to carry their bags?  - Pfranz
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#94214
02/07/2003 9:59 AM
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No, I don't agree with him. Dreams are all very well but there are very good reasons why there are manned missions to space. Firstly, if scientific experiments and research are still carried out manually on earth what makes the different medium of space any different? A human presence is still required. Secondly, scientific experiments in space are not affected by the extremes of gravity on earth. Successions of tests over the decades have proved that research into medicinal compounds and serums are greatly enhanced under these conditions - thus justifying the expense of the ISS and the shuttle flights.
If space flight is just to be about flights of whimsy and flag-waving and space races to Mars and bases on the moon then it will have to funded globally and probably through private enterprise. They're the ones (judging by the two space tourists) who really want that kind of thing to succeed. The real point of space flight is not about dreams but about aiding reality through the benefits of reserach in space.
Space flight is not a game which should be produced as a crowd pleaser. It is dangerous, unwieldy and still in its nascency despite its rushed beginnings which led to seven unnecessary deaths in the 60s. As great as it sounds to reach the stars, the asteroids or, more humbly, Mars this is just pie on the sky at the moment. The technology to get a small cart-sized robot to Mars was immense and very lucky. The technology to get it back doesn't exist. It also took five years to get there. That would mean a return manned-trip of at least ten years. The problems of oxygen, food, waste disposal, exercise, bone-marrow loss, mental and physical fatigue and psychosis from being cooped in such a confined space for so long are the least of the problems to be faced. These are only the ones dealing with the human side of the mission. A justification is necessary to send people that far and or so long. Flag-planting is not one.
If dreams of space exploration are to a fore then we need to know more about the place where we will send our astronauts before we make such bold a leap. Forty years is not long enough to get to know something which is boundless in size and which is more hazardous than sending a rowing boat out in a squall.
Dream the dream but don't get too disappointed if it doesn't happen in your lifetime or that of your grandchildren.
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#94215
02/07/2003 10:35 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thanks, Rubrick, for the information about the ten years (at least) required to get to and from Mars. Most excellent point.
Too bad there aren't wormholes in the solar system. That's a fascinating consideration.
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#94216
02/07/2003 11:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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Just think of the (crazy) guys who originally went to explore the North and South Poles. Some of those trips lasted several years due to mechanical breakdowns, etc. And all for what? To claim some part of Antarctica as belonging to some country. Lots of people died on those missions. They were mostly privately funded by rich guys who wanted their name on some distant bay or cove. There was some oceanographic research conducted, but that wasn't the main thrust. Sounds strikingly similar to Rubrick's argument about space exploration. The arguments could've applied equally well to polar exploration 100 years ago. I'm not saying it [space flight] is good or bad, noble or foolhardy...but just think about the parallels.
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#94217
02/07/2003 11:49 AM
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Ah, there's nothing wrong with the human spirit of exploration. This is natural. But we are less gung-ho now about such risks as we were a hundred years ago when the poles were first conquered.
Exploring the unknown and the dangerous was considered part of the Edwardian nobleness (when the poles were discovered). But, then again, so was volunteering to get machine-gunned in Flanders. Whole continents were explored (and annexed) during a relatively small time and usually at a much greater expense (in human terms as well as monetary) than the space race. A hundred years later we are still reconsidering what is worthwhile and what is not when we endeavour to conquer the unconquerable.
At the moment the average stay in space for an ISS crew is four months. The confined space is ample for the crew to work well together without a feeling of claustrophobia and they have the added assurance that earth is just below ina case their is anything wrong. The same went for the moon shots. The earth was but a blot but it was still reachable by the three astronauts.
Not so Mars. Halfway on their journey the earth will disappear and blend into the masses of other heavenly objects like just another star. The feeling that this could be a one-way journey with no chance of rescue would phase even the hardiest of astronauts. Imagine being stuck in a telephone booth for five years only to be let out into a cold environment for a few hours (wearing a spacesuit) and then having to do the return journey. Just the thought makes me claustrophobic.
The only hope for space exploration is to develop our endurance in such conditions while engineering larger and more habitable spacecraft which can only be feasibly constructed in space. Barring the setbacks of the recent disaster that could take another 50 years - if NASA and the other administrations get full funding which, in the current climate, isn't forthcoming or likely.
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#94218
02/07/2003 1:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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my guess is that there would be a line several miles long(slight hyperbolic statement, there) of people waiting to take that trip to Mars. danger, or no. we've no shortage of people willing to take the risks necessary to be the first at anything.
my feelings:
vision, moderated with care and thought. but first, vision.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#94219
02/07/2003 1:58 PM
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Hey, I'm high up that queue, etaoin. That's one feat I'd love to achieve.
I'm just saying that it's ridiculous to put unnecessary stress on current technology in order to get us there now. It's hard to believe that men got to the moon using a computer with the same processing power as a modern VCR but we still haven't progessed much since then. Let's wait until the technology exists to get us to Mars before we commit to a manned (or womanned) mission.
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#94220
02/07/2003 2:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Let's wait until the technology exists to get us to Mars
I agree with you Ru, but the technology already exists. maybe not as fast or as safe or as comfortable as we might like, but we could get there. matter-of-fact(maybe), if we always waited until everything was perfect, we'd still be swimming in the sea...…
formerly known as etaoin...
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#94221
02/07/2003 2:14 PM
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Not quite sure about this, etaoin. A technology exists but not the technology.
It's too easy to say that the technology exists to get us to Mars when we are still stuggling with sub-orbital space stations. It's not just a case of building a spaceship and launching it. That's been proved to work. It's maintaining a workable life-support system and a healthy crew for ten years in space which are the problems. The technology does not exist for this.
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#94222
02/07/2003 7:47 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,070 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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It's maintaining a workable life-support system and a healthy crew for ten years in space which are the problems. The technology does not exist for this.
And that, of course, is the crux of the matter. We don't really know whether what we have available works or not without the testing we're doing now. I suspect it does, _if_ it can be made reliable enough. (Which, clearly, is a big "if.")
A word about the foam and tiles - it's the relative speeds that count. The 1200-2000 mph speed of the foam isn't that much different from the speed of the shuttle, so that even if it's hardened foam (not soft and squishy at all, the way we tend to picture "foam") the difference in speed may not be enough to make it a damaging projectile. A little slower to be sure, but enough to cause that kind of impact and damage? That's what the experts are trying to determine, as best thay can.
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#94223
02/07/2003 7:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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Rubrick, where do you get the ten years? The unmanned missions to Mars have only taken around 18-21 months to get there, so a manned trip should involve no more than 5 years in space (2.5 there, 2.5 back). Mars ain't that far away, after all. Cassini will reach Saturn less than ten years after launch, so ten years to Mars must be taking the scenic route.
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#94224
02/07/2003 8:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
A word about the foam and tiles - it's the relative speeds that count.
What you wrote makes sense.
But there's still the commentary made on Sunday that a piece of foam hit the exterior rocket engine in a lift-off over a year ago and made a dent in the steel.
This foam issue isn't minor. From what I've been reading, experts have warned about the foam problem for years. Modifications have been been, but I haven't inferred in reading anything that there was ever consensus that foam was now a non-issue.
So back to the fine point you made about relative speed. If what you wrote is abolutely true, then how did a piece of falling foam insulation put a dent into an exterior steel rocket engine? I'm curious about how the relative speed factor didn't come into play there.
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#94225
02/07/2003 8:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,070 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Perhaps the relative speeds _are_ different enough to cause damage. As I said, that's what the experts have to figure out.
The same issue arises in consideration of the airplane that supposedly shoots itself down by firing its guns, then diving under the bullet trajectory and picking up speed, then overtaking and getting hit by its own bullets. Is it a true story, or apocryphal? Anyone know the status of that phenomenon? I'd almost sooner believe it inhaled it's own (relatively slowly-moving) bullets and fouled its turbines.
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#94226
02/07/2003 8:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Pretty good article here with a video clip of the foam falling: http://www.msnbc.com/news/867336.asp?vts=2720031323#BODYOne thing the video clip impressed upon me was the foam was falling in one direction, but the shuttle was moving upward in the opposite direction, so the force of impact would have been far greater than had the foam and shuttle been moving in the same direction. You're in a race with someone; you're moving in the same direction; he catches up with, slaps your hand forward; not too much pain. Completely different scenario if you're running toward each other and he slaps your hand--you're going to feel that impact more. In other words, had the shuttle been heading toward the earth and had hit a piece of foam heading the same direction, the impact wouldn't have been as great as in the case as it was. But the vulnerable part of the left wing--that leading edge--from this video clip it doesn't appear that the foam hit the leading edge where the problems have been assumed to have begun. Could just be the lack of clarity in the clip. Has anyone read any confirmation that the insulating foam hit the leading edge of the left wing?
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#94227
02/07/2003 9:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,070 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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One thing the video clip impressed upon me was the foam was falling in one direction, but the shuttle was moving upward in the opposite direction, so the force of impact would have been far greater than had the foam and shuttle been moving in the same direction.
Still the same problem: the foam probably wasn't falling yet, just no longer rising as fast as the shuttle was. It looks like falling because the camera is following the shuttle up, at say 2,000mph, while the debris had slowed because it was no longer attached to the pushing-up rockets and because of air resistance.
How much did it slow in that less-that-one-second? to -- what? 1999 mph? 1950 mph? 1900 mph? 1500 mph? That's what determines the severity of the impact.
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#94228
02/07/2003 9:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well, for sake of argument, say the foam was immobile in space and the shuttle hit it at 2000 mph--hmmm. That's still quite a whack. And then let's say, again for sake of argument, that the glue on the tile on that leading edge hadn't been applied as precisely as it should have been, the tile itself could have been vulnerable.
That said, I really don't expect the gluing to have been a problem--though it certainly has been a past problem--especially with the leading edges on the wings, which were critical points. I would expect the crew that glued to have taken special care with the gluing of tiles onto those leading edges.
I hope the portion of the wing that was recovered today was the left wing...
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#94229
02/07/2003 10:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I see no reason not to continue with both programs in conjunction with the other. I'm all for the ISS, and was highly disappointed when they cut the size back so that habitation can only accommodate three astronauts/scientists rather than the intended twelve. That would have been a real little community working together in space, and would have greatly enhanced the amount of experimentation which could be conducted on an ongoing basis. But why couldn't we, for instance, have continued with the Apollo program at the same time we were developing the shuttles and space stations? I know it's largely due to budgetary concerns...so increase the budget! What we spend on space is a paltry sum compared to other areas of exorbitant expense. Both programs are important and should be pursued together, complimentary to one another...not as an either/or proposition. And I certainly don't see where "flag waving" is any longer a factor in all this...the Cold War "Space Race" had it's place, and that notion is now passé. I really don't think anybody's going to Mars to be the first one to plant a flag there. That trip will, and should be, an internationally supported journey to explore other worlds for the benefit of mankind...and maybe for proof of other life.
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#94230
02/07/2003 10:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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wofa:
Do NOT do this, but think about what happens:
Driving along at 60 miles an hour, throw a styrofoam cup out of the window at the same time you throw out, oh, a marble.
Which one is going to continue moving at close to 60 MPH and which one is going to slow down immediately. That piece of foam would go to zero air speed pretty quickly. And when your tail fin hits it. . . .
TEd
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#94231
02/08/2003 3:17 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
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OK HERE'S WHATS REAL.
(A) We (the USA) are the only gutfull defenders of the rights of mankind, and we, will defend and protect our God-given-right to extend our God given rights to the recogition of we men.
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#94232
02/08/2003 12:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#94233
02/08/2003 1:17 PM
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Posts: 555
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I see multiple threads there Faldage; which one of them were you referring to?
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#94234
02/08/2003 1:53 PM
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Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Cool board, Faldage.
There are two threads I've gone through: one on interstellar travel and the other on the shuttle crew.
Thanks for the link.
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#94235
02/08/2003 2:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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If you've got plenty of time and the inclination, here's a page from the NASA site I posted earlier down below in Miscellany: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/investigation/sensors/index.htmlThis page has numerous thumbnail diagrams of the sensors going out in the order they went out. The thumbnails aren't of much use, but if you have patience and time, increase the size of the thumbnails and follow the time sequence.
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#94236
02/08/2003 11:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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which one of them were you referring to?
I wasn't referring to any one of them specifically. That's where you go if you want to discuss politics or religion or other subjects that aren't really of concern to this board.
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#94237
02/08/2003 11:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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I wasn't referring to any one of them specifically. That's where you go if you want to discuss politics or religion or other subjects that aren't really of concern to this board.I agree faldage, but please, pray tell, what are the real concerns of your board? _____________________ 
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#94238
02/10/2003 8:50 AM
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Rubrick, where do you get the ten years? The unmanned missions to Mars have only taken around 18-21 months to get there, so a manned trip should involve no more than 5 years in space (2.5 there, 2.5 back). Mars ain't that far away, after all. Cassini will reach Saturn less than ten years after launch, so ten years to Mars must be taking the scenic route.
The ten years are the worst case scenario which must always be presumed before a firsts-time launch. If you have a small unmanned mission like the lunar rover then you don't have to worry about a leak in the oxygen supply before a launch. This light that candle and watch it fly!
Now there is only a small launch window for Mars because it and Earth are orbiting at different speeds. Miss that aunch window and you are likely playing catchup. If you don't launch then you will have to wait another 18 months for the next realignment. It could feasibly take 18-21 months to get there if all went well but this is nothing like any manned mission performed before so I'm guessing that they'll add a few months on to an each way trip to allow for hitches such as the realignment one above.
Structural damage due to speed is not an issue in space where the vacuum means there is no medium to incur fatigue. The only real risk of damage is landing on Mars and, with its lower gravity than Earth (but denser than the moon) the question of relaunch is going to be a tough one to answer.
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#94239
02/28/2003 5:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I just watched a hand-held video NASA released taken by the crew 11 minutes before the break-up. There is no indication in the footage the crew had knowledge of any problems, though it is a bit eerie watching them film the plasma building through the windows and commenting about it....the film ended about 4 minutes bofore any trouble began as they first entered the atmosphere...the rest of the file was destroyed. It will air again at 3 pm and 6 pm (EST) on the 24 hr news channels, for those who might be interested.
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#94240
03/02/2003 4:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
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That's where you go if you want to discuss politics or religion or
other subjects that aren't really of concern to this board.
Hm. I had that initial reaction to milum's post, but then I thought he must be joking?
anyway, 'tis good to know about snurl, for them as wants to battle that notion out.
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#94241
03/02/2003 11:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...is an even shorter make-a-shorter-link.
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