#93235
01/24/2003 9:33 PM
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#93236
01/24/2003 9:53 PM
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I'll expound but I ain't voting.
The hyphen is a transitional form between double words and single words, e.g., base ball, base-ball, baseball. In the case of hubbub there was no initial form hub bub
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#93237
01/24/2003 9:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
I vote for #1, mainly because I agree with Juan that there is too much hyphenventilating already!!!
And I think I should get weighted credit as I actually use the word, on occasion.
mm
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#93238
01/24/2003 10:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
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#93239
01/25/2003 2:40 AM
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>tsuwm doesn't like the double-b...
wherever did you get that notion? furthermoreover and in the second place, I emphatically agree with Faldo: there never was a hub-bub. and finally, hubbub looks more like an uproar than does hub-bub!
A universal hubbub wilde Of stunning sounds and voices all confus'd. Milton, Paradise Lost
-joe (the Expounder) friday
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#93240
01/25/2003 3:53 AM
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Posts: 11,613
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No hyphen. It's never had one, and shouldn't ever have one in the future either. And aside from that, hyphenating it slows it down too much.
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#93241
01/25/2003 4:01 AM
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So, lessee...what you're saying then, is that the introduction of a hyphen into any standing word structure for clarity's sake is taboo? That unless a hyphen is a part of the transition of two words forming into one word (as per baseball), then hypens are illegal? Well, let's see what one of the foremost coiners of newly-hypenated (  ) words for the sake of gaining poetic imagery, a more original semantic nuance, Mr. Dylan Thomas, had to say...oh, and this just so happens to be from a "minor" work of his you may or may not know, Under Milkwood, the opening: To begin at the beginning:
It is Spring, moonless night in the small town, starless and bible-black, the cobblestreets silent and the hunched, courters'-and-rabbits' wood limping invisible down to the
sloeblack, slow, black, crowblack, fishingboat-bobbing sea.So, unless these instances are on their way to becoming, let's say, courters'andrabbits' and fishingboatbobbingsea, I guess they're taboo as well? And the only thing worse then complaining about a writer's strategically-chosen hyphen is for an editor to place a hypen in an author's word without any consultation...but we won't mention any names, tswum. 
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#93242
01/25/2003 4:08 AM
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>a bit more from Dylan Thomas:
From where you are, you can hear, in Cockle Row in the spring, moonless night, Miss Price, dressmaker and sweetshop-keeper, dream of her lover, tall as the town clock tower, Samson-syrup-gold-maned, whacking thighed and piping hot, thunderbolt-bass'd and barnacle-breasted flailing up the cockles with his eyes like blowlamps and scooping low over her lonely loving hotwaterbottled body ...<
--Under Milkwood
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#93243
01/25/2003 4:12 AM
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#93244
01/25/2003 4:19 AM
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and a bit more from Mr. Thomas: P. C. Atilla Rees, ox-broad, barge-booted, stomping out of Handcuff House in a heavy beef-red huff, black-browed under his damp helmet... -- Under MilkwoodNotice how in the the first-quoted excerpt Thomas chooses to use a hyphen for bible-black, but not for sloeblack or crowblack?...insert or delete hyphens as you will...poet's perogative! 
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#93245
01/25/2003 4:28 AM
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hotwaterbottled?tsuwm, you need to get out more! 
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#93246
01/25/2003 4:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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#93247
01/25/2003 5:09 AM
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Juan, you don't like hubbub b's sandwiched together. OK. Taste is indisputable. But what about: bubble, Hubble, nobbin... other double b's? Is it just the hubbub double-b because of the proximity of the u's? Too bad there's not a word bubbub! It would be a palindrome both front and back and inside-out!Probably because, to me, the center bs in hub-bub are two distinct bs, while, in the other examples, the bs are more like a rolling-together sound...(interestingly enough, "roll together" didn't quite capture the effect I was trying to communicate, and when I changed it to "rolling-together" it was a much more effective image...but without the hyphen, "rolling together" wouldn't have been as effective either!). I think this is where Musick's Dictum comes in somewhere, isn't it?
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#93248
01/25/2003 11:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
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so is it normally dubdub? or is it dub-dub? or have I chopped the liv-er, or merely stated the obvious?
formerly known as etaoin...
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#93249
01/25/2003 1:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Juan says: So, lessee...what you're saying then, is that the introduction of a hyphen into any standing word structure for clarity's sake is taboo?
Beautiful example, Juan!
Of the fallacy of hasty generalization.
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#93250
01/25/2003 2:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
Personally, I like hyphens. But not in hubbub, or with "ly" words (a discussion we've had before and I know ICLIU but I don't feel like doing it just now)
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#93251
01/25/2003 2:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
me and john dos passos vote for the hyphen in dub-dub but not in hubbub. we think the hyphen serves as a necessary syntaxal pause in dub-pause-dub. otherwise hyphenate only for the mental image of a thing that has been altered by joining. but in general join words together like germans. it'll look poetic and make your sentences read smoothly. i am writing in the lower case not because of any ee cummings literary air but because mister petee is sitting on the shift key and won't move. mister petee is a cat.
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#93252
01/25/2003 3:24 PM
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Posts: 4,189
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Juan says: So, lessee...what you're saying then, is that the introduction of a hyphen into any standing word structure for clarity's sake is taboo?
Beautiful example, Faladage!
Of quoting out of context.
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#93253
01/25/2003 3:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
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hubbub
No question about it.
Longer strings, of *real, discrete words, definitely should be hyphenated, as Juan pointed out.
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#93254
01/25/2003 3:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Of quoting out of context.It's the beginning the middle and ... heck, it is the whole context of that response (one that presumes a stinking-rule is being *invented). I'm with tsuwm on the "hotwaterbottled" ommission.
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#93255
01/25/2003 4:00 PM
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(one that presumes a stinking-rule is being *invented).Just to be clear is "we dun need no steenkin' rules" (choose one): 1) Musick's Dictum
2) Musick's Maxim
3) Musick's MantraIn retrospect, and in deference to my love for alliteration, I'm changing my vote to 3... Musick's Mantra. But I suppose the Mantra Maestro should just tell us himself.
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#93256
01/25/2003 6:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
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Hubbub - said aloud it sounds like a babble.
Hub-bub said aloud, with the hyphen being a kind of glottal stop, just doesn't make it
I vote hubbub.
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#93257
01/25/2003 6:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
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Let me climb on the hyphen-nyeting bandwagon too. If you try to put a hyphen into hubbub all it does is disrupt the hubbub. Leave it out, dash it all! No, better yet, _don't_ dash at all.
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#93258
01/25/2003 7:29 PM
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Posts: 4,189
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rub-a-dub-dub three men in a tubrub a dub dub rubadubdub I think the choice is obvious.
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#93259
01/25/2003 9:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
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I like the hubbub just as it is. Let Juan hyphenate his if he wants. "Rules? We doan need no steenkin rules!"
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#93260
01/25/2003 9:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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BTW, I have absolutely no problem with "hubba, hubba, hubba!" 
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#93261
01/26/2003 12:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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I'm with tsuwm on the "hotwaterbottled" ommissionWhat "ommission"? That's the point...you can't be for or against this...this is Dylan Thomas' style, the way he intended this word he created to be to best capture the image he desires...it is because he, the author, decreed it is...there is no right or wrong...it just is...his choice, his work of art, his poetic license!
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#93262
01/26/2003 2:03 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
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...and I was merely bemused by his choice in this nonce-word, after all those other hyphens. I guess he just ran out--or maybe he was a hyphenoclast.
- (to-be-or-not-to-be) ron obvious
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#93263
01/26/2003 2:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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#93264
01/26/2003 3:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Hub-bub, schmub-bub. Hubbub, of-course.
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#93265
01/26/2003 3:34 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
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rub a dub dub
rub a dub-dub?
formerly known as etaoin...
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#93266
01/26/2003 4:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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Requiring a poet to get a license?...
...or should I say...
..."choiring to the preacher"?
This is wa-ay *too much fun
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#93267
01/26/2003 5:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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rub a dub-dub? ?!? Better watch it, you'll get your hand slapped! ========================================================= Revealing my ignorance again-- tall as the town clock tower, Samson-syrup-gold-maned, whacking thighed and piping hot, thunderbolt-bass'd and barnacle-breasted flailing up the cockles with his eyes like blowlamps and scooping low over her lonely loving hotwaterbottled body ...< You have got to be kidding me. I'm sorry, I know he's famous and revered and all--I've even read things of his that I like--but did this book by any chance start with, "It was a dark and stormy night..."? Surely he wasn't serious, but was writing this OTT to demonstrate ... something?
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#93268
01/26/2003 6:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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Under MilkwoodJackie, Under Milkwood, a verse-play, was written by Dylan Thomas as "a play for voices," and it's just beautiful in performance...both poignant and haunting...like a luscious symphony of language and character...a theatrical experience not to be missed. Here's a site with some background and Thomas links, and the first part of the text so you can see how it flows in context: http://oedipa.tripod.com/thomas.html
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#93269
01/27/2003 12:28 AM
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Well, I said I was showing my ignorance. Okay, it's "a play for voices"--thank you. I can't help but have a sneaking suspicion that I would be bored to the screaming point, but. Maybe if I were in the right frame of mind... I reckon the actors would have to have mellifluous voices?
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#93270
01/27/2003 12:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
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#93271
01/27/2003 12:42 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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'Fraid I need an explanation of your subject, please, Sweetie. Send Private if you like.
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#93272
01/27/2003 10:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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bored to the screaming point ... the right frame of mind
If you're looking for plot/character development forget it. Imagine you're going to a music concert. You wouldn't leave a concert saying things like, "I really like the way the composer resolved that conflict between the oboes and the violas," or "The french horns faced some very serious issues and, I think, came out much the better for it."
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#93273
01/27/2003 11:25 AM
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Posts: 11,613
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You wouldn't leave a concert saying things like, "I really like the way the composer resolved that conflict between the oboes and the violas," Akshurly, I might! Not the other one, though. Yes, I definitely would have to be in the right frame of mind; I have never heard of this art form before. But I imagine that with the right "mood" lighting, and golden-voiced performers, it could be quite captivating.
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#93274
01/27/2003 4:09 PM
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A friend sent me a review of Under Milkwood: "What's so funny about a town full of sociopaths? Dylan Thomas knew the answer: that life is better lived with a dark passion than a squeaky-clean complaisance; that with all their flaws, the denizens of Llareggub are divine creations, deserving of forgiveness and acceptance, laughter and love. Thomas' characters make us laugh, even as they engage in a myriad of sins more deadly than those normally committed by those of us in the outside world. Why do we laugh? Because, in spite of their sins, these outlandish characters are not so very different from you and me." (I also got clued in as to the original eman.)
This reminded me of a bit I heard on TV yesterday: author Adam Davies was talking about his book, "The Frog King". (I see that Amazon lists it as "The Frog King: A Love Story".) He was saying that in this book, he wanted to explore whether someone who has many flaws and isn't necessarily likeable could in the end be found to be worthy of love (note--this is a severe shortening of all that he had to say). He said he discovered his favorite moment in all of literature when he was in the 9th grade (approx. age 14) and it is still his favorite: when Odysseus gets back home and no one knows him after so long a time, until his childhood nurse recognizes him by an old scar on his leg. Mr. Davies said that, "We are known by the scars life gives us", and I thought that was kind of profound.
It sounds like both this play and this book more or less celebrate the un-"pretty" (figurative sense, not literal), not-very-nice people.
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