#93062
01/23/2003 6:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
On another board I frequent, one of the other contributors, a young woman in her early twenties hailing from Virginia, picked me up on my usage.
I had used "thoughtfully" to mean deep in thought, as in "Thoughtfully, he walked back to his room." She insisted that to people her age, thoughtfully could only mean considerately.
She also queried my use of the word "hubbub" for the noise in a crowded pub or bar, as in "She couldn't catch what they were saying over the general hubbub." She insisted that this word could not be used seriously but only for comedic effect.
I was wondering whether the board, particularly our younger members, agreed with her. Are we seeing the language changing before our very eyes, or is it a regional difference? Or is her particular idiolect out of step with the rest of the English-speaking world in these instances?
Bingley
Bingley
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#93063
01/23/2003 7:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 171
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 171 |
On the first point, regarding the connotation of thoughtfully, I would have to side with the young lady. I don't recall ever hearing or seeing it used in the contemplative sense. I am not of her generation, but perhaps of her region (my upbringing was in California).
Regarding hubub--I've always thought of this as slightly slangy, but a legitimate English expression.
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#93064
01/23/2003 8:03 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
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#93065
01/23/2003 9:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Coming from the experienced and mature group on this side of the Atlantic, I would go along with WW.
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#93066
01/23/2003 11:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
And coming from somewhere else entirely, so would I. Thoughtfully can either mean considerately or deep in thought. It sounds like Bingley's young lady is just a little lacking in education. Now there's a surprise!
Hubbub is just a one-word shorthand for "lots of general noise". It may sound slangy if you haven't previously encountered it, but it's right up there with antidisestablishmentarianism for legitimacy!
- Pfranz
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#93067
01/23/2003 11:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
As a young man, myself,  I would also agree, but with the rider that thoughtfully is very rarely used over here to mean anything other than "with consideration". (And, adds he, peevishly, it is neither used nor practised with that meaning all that much, these days.)
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#93068
01/23/2003 11:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Ektewally, seems I quite often hear: "You're looking thoughtful."(finishing with implied question mark)
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#93069
01/23/2003 11:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Well, Bingley, I'm 26, and I understand "thoughtfully" to mean either "considerate" or "deep in thought", depending on context. But then again, I read too much.
As for "hubbub", it's another great word. I don't consider it comedic. But then again - I've already told you - I read too much. I might get strange looks if I used hubbub in normal conversation with my peers. (Mind you, there are plenty of words I do use which elicit strange looks from people.) Too bad for them!
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#93070
01/23/2003 11:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
Thoughtfully is the adverb form of thoughtful,
All I really want to say is "ditto," but I'm not sure how that would go over in here, so I'll say "bull's eye" instead.
k
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#93071
01/23/2003 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
"And you were correct," said TEd thoughtfully.
TEd
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#93072
01/23/2003 1:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,613 |
I had, sort of, the same idea as Ted. Try: "You have posed a most interesting question, he said thoughtfully." With no other context, I don't see how this usage could be interpreted as "considerately".
I think the young lady should have taken your sentence in its context, before declaring your usage wrong. If the prelude had led one to think that the character's companion had, say, wanted to be alone, then "Thoughtfully, he walked back to his room" might be taken to mean that he was being considerate--though I don't like that. I don't see how she could have interpreted it as anything but meaning thinking deeply; one would presume that the companion has just given him something to think about.
Methinks your critic could benefit from some more experience. Perhaps she has only seen hubbub used in a funny story, and has thus assumed it is always used so.
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#93073
01/23/2003 2:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
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With regard to "hubbub", there was an article in the New England Historical Genealogical Record
many years ago that seemed believable. It stated that not many years after the foundation of
Boston, the Massachusetts Indians had a gambling game in which animal "knuckle" bones were
used like dice. As is almost universal in such gambling, loud cries were uttered in hope of influencing
the result of the throw. "Hub! Hub!" was said to be the Indian exhortation employed. New Englanders brought it to England as a word describing mass babbling at parties.
It seems to me that its antiquity as onomatopoiea makes it quite acceptable.
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#93074
01/23/2003 5:22 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Have you tried her reaction to brouhaha?
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#93075
01/23/2003 6:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
How good of you, Bingley, to so very thoughtfully instruct this young woman on the semantic diversity of thoughtful/ly. I don't know what all her hub-bub was about. Perhaps, as Pfranz points out, she needs more exposure to the language. While thoughtful as "consideration" is now the prevalent usage, the 'deeply in thought' or 'deeply reflective' connotation is not at all uncommon. And a bit presumptuous of her to argue against it, I must say...hasn't much of a propensity for exploration and gaining knowledge, has she? Why not offer her this idiom, Bingley...a phrase which seems to combine both: thoughtful consideration (i.e. after giving much thoughtful consideration to the matter; after a lot of thoughful consideration). That oughtta knock her off-balance and hopefully send her scurrying to the phrase-finder sites and dictionaries!  I have no problem with hub-bub, either....except that I usually spell it with a hyphen. (don't start, guys...and you all know who you are, the usual suspects) But I see, that according to the dictionary, there is no hyphen....still, those two Bs sandwiched together kind of bother me...hubbub, hub-bub.
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#93076
01/23/2003 6:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
Actually, I have no objection to these usages. Hopefully, you will post a link to these comments so your "young woman" can see the error of her ways. --- >those two Bs sandwiched together kind of bother me...hubbub you're bothered by the hubbub, bub? is that what's bothering you bubby?!
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#93077
01/23/2003 8:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Well, I is 35 (and-a-half), and I agrees with Dubdub, 'way up near the beginning of this thread....I've heard of and understand both nuances/definitions/meanings of "thoughtfully" and I got no problem with "hubbub" (not even with the two bees sandwiched together in the middle there!).
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#93078
01/23/2003 8:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
you're bothered by the hubbub, bub? is that what's bothering you bubby?!Cool, tsuwm!...you Old Foolosopher, you!...you must be in bubbly spirits, today!  And don't forget that old Beach Boys' tune: "Bub, Bub, Bub, Bub, Bubra Ann..." sorry...
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#93079
01/24/2003 12:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 171
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 171 |
Is there anything to be gained by looking at the antonym?
If we take a thoughtless action ("That was very thoughtless of you"), is there any generational confusion over the inference, or is it again simply a matter of context?
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#93080
01/24/2003 1:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well now, JH, you've brought up an interesting point. "Inconsiderate" is, I think, further from "thoughtless", than "considerate" is from "thoughtful". (Don't even mention that asymptote thing!) Thoughtless, to me, implies exactly that: lack of thought. Whereas, inconsiderate would or could mean that you may have been aware that what you were about to do wasn't very nice, but you went ahead and did it anyway. I'd be thoughtless if I took a parking space without looking to see if perhaps someone was waiting for it out of my immediate line of vision. I'd be inconsiderate if I saw someone coming from a distance and sped up to beat them to it. (And then there was the time when I was at a red light downtown, and to my delight saw an empty parking meter across the intersection. Then I saw someone pull up in front of it and hit their brakes. As my light turned green, their backup lights went on. I tore across the road and dove my car headfirst into the spot! What can I say, I was late for court! [shamefaced shrug])
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#93081
01/24/2003 4:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
I was late for court!For a reckless driving ticket, no doubt! 
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#93082
01/24/2003 1:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Ha! Good guess, but no, I was working.
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#93083
01/24/2003 3:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,136 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,136 Likes: 2 |
Hopefully, you will post a link to these comments so your "young woman" can see the error of her ways.
Using "thoughtfully" to mean "considerate" as opposed to "deep in/full of thought" is in a way analogous to using "hopefully" to mean "I hope" rather than "full of hope".
For the most part we've shrugged our shoulders hopelessly on that one as a lost battle. (Or accepted reality, depending on one's philosophy.)
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#93084
01/24/2003 9:00 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
I agree. I don't like to see hubbub telescoped together.
TEd
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#93085
01/24/2003 11:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
wofa, loved the pun.
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#93086
01/25/2003 5:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
She insisted that to people (of) her age,
Ahhh, and therein lies the rub.
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#93087
01/27/2003 4:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Still like to know her reaction to 'brouhaha' . Note lack of hyphens 
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