#92284
01/16/2003 11:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
I've heard recently that the word craic, meaning good conversation, conviviality, is causing some weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth among those who react strongly to perceived misuses of the language. Specifically, they are saying that it is a homegrown English word and not Irish Gaelic at all, citing uses in Middle English. The OED traces this usage back to 1450 and calls it Scottish and northern dialect. Any comments from the Gaeliliterate?
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#92285
01/16/2003 12:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
The two are not mutually exclusive, I suppose, as the present inhabitants of Scotland (the Scots) invaded from Ireland way back (dunno perzacly when, but [I think]well pre-Roman) bringing there language with them. Scots, Irish and Welsh Gaelic have developed separately since then, of course, but they still have more in common than not.
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#92286
01/16/2003 2:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
I was thinking about that Rhuby, and got to wondering how late lowland Scotland was in the Gaeltach. AHD doesn't list that defintion of crack and it's always been my source of choice for etymologies.
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#92287
01/16/2003 2:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 6,296 |
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#92288
01/16/2003 2:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Craic? that's a fun-ny question.
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#92289
01/16/2003 2:27 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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pre-Roman
Now I've got it stuck in my mind that it was about the same time as the Sassenach invasion of the South. Seems like the Britons invited the Angles and Saxons over to help them stave off the Picts. The Picts were certainly a problem because the Britons no longer had the Romans to defend them, but it may have been exacerbated by Scot pressure on the Picts.
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#92290
01/16/2003 2:55 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Now I've got it stuck in my mind that it was about the same time as the Sassenach invasion of the South. You could well be right, faldage. As I posted, I had a sinking feeling that it was, in fact, post-Roman - we need a Dark-Ages historian to help us out here. My C19 expertise is of little help and I freely acknowledge that i am well out of my period, here!  As to the Gaeltag "conversion" of the southern parts of Scotland, I'm not sure. Certainly by the Early English period (late-C15 - mid-C17) the Scottish version of English was the norm in the lowland areas and Gaelic was in the wild and uncouth Highlands. Control of the northern parts of England and the southern parts of Scotland passed from one tribe to another throughout the dark-ages and the mediaeval period, anyway. Lancaster Castle, in the city where I now live and which was a building in which I taught for some years, was started by a Scottish King (David II, if I remember correctly) in ca. 1150. and the voillage in which I lived, some six miles south of Lancaster was right on the Anglo-Scottish border for about fifty years. to Dub-dubThe invasion to which I refer is when the indigenous unhabitants of Ireland (Hibernia), the Scots, (believe it or not) invaded the northern-most areas of Britain (Caledonia), driving out the indigenous inhabitants (the Picts) and calling the area taken over Scotland.
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#92291
01/16/2003 4:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Another felicitous typo, Rhuby! You craic me up! 
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#92292
01/16/2003 4:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Duh - yeah - well - once they'd invaded Caledonia, they weren't inhabiting Hibernia, now were they? (whoever designed the keyboard with U next to I ought to be shot!)
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#92293
01/16/2003 4:09 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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not Irish Gaelic at all, citing uses in Middle English.
Ha! The English were always claiming credit for things Irish. (that should set the cat among the pigeons tee he he he he )
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#92294
01/16/2003 8:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
a subscriber writes today wondering if there's any relationship between craic and the expression cracking good.
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#92295
01/16/2003 8:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 6,296 |
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#92296
01/16/2003 9:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
Scots, Irish and Welsh Gaelic have developed separately since then, of course, but they still have more in common than not.
Welsh Gaelic? Thanks, Rhuby, I did not know that Welsh was a type of Gaelic. I had heard it called Brythonic, and knew it was Celtic, but did not know it was Gaelic.
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#92297
01/19/2003 4:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
Howse about "By Crackey"?
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#92298
01/19/2003 8:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
I had heard it called Brythonic, and knew it was Celtic, but did not know it was Gaelic.
Not certain, but I think Brythonic is the name of a sub-set of Gaelic. Certainly, the Welsh, Irish, Scots, Cornish and Bretons (from North West France, that is) get together from time to time to hold Gaelic conferences, and apparently they can jsut about understand each other, but with great difficulty.
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