#91116
01/06/2003 5:19 AM
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Was interested to hear today that there is a link between the expressions "big shot" (ie an important person) and "loose woman".
Any guesses as to what the common thread is?
stales
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#91117
01/06/2003 10:54 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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#91118
01/06/2003 1:08 PM
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Cannon are what the big shots refer to, but I need much more.
stales
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#91119
01/06/2003 1:19 PM
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loose cannons
No, wait, that refers to one that isn't fastened down. This sounds like one whose bore is too large. It takes a big shot to fill a loose woman.
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#91120
01/06/2003 1:22 PM
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Still no ceegar suh. I've given y'all a clue by stating that there's a common thread.
stales
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#91121
01/06/2003 2:05 PM
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Well now. According to this site http://makeashorterlink.com/?O2F013BF2 big shot, at least in the US, dates from the 1920s. Course this isn't a registered etymology site but. PS EditQuinion http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-big1.htm mentions it in a general discussion of "big" phrases in a specific discussion of big cheese, apparently dating it after the 1914 appearance of the latter phrase.
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#91122
01/06/2003 3:30 PM
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Still no ceegar suh. I've given y'all a clue by stating that there's a common thread.I'd give my left patootie to actually *hear you say that, stales. 
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#91123
01/06/2003 3:43 PM
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Looks like the only thread that has all four words in it is this one. At least in AWADtalk.
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#91124
01/06/2003 3:47 PM
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cannons are "threaded", after a fashion..
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#91125
01/06/2003 3:58 PM
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cannons are "threaded"
As are loose women?
Or do they both sink ships?
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#91126
01/06/2003 4:21 PM
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>as are loose women?
or not..
(perhaps I should have written "some cannons are threaded....")
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#91127
01/06/2003 4:31 PM
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cannons are "threaded", after a fashion..
...but threadnodists' canons are almost never loose.
sorry...
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#91128
01/06/2003 4:34 PM
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Well, a loose cannon would be one that is cut a bit too large for the caliber shell required, and, in the old days, they would have to employ the ramrod rather emphatically in order to tighten the shell against the charge...? sounds good to me!
And, of course, the artillery units who employed the largest caliber cannon balls were considered to be the "big shots".
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#91129
01/06/2003 4:52 PM
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a loose cannon would be one that is cut a bit too large for the caliber shell required
And I thought a loose cannon was one not securely fastened to the deck; one that moves about unpredictably and dangerously after being fired, causing as much potential harm to the gun crew as to their intended target.
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#91130
01/06/2003 5:43 PM
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And I thought a loose cannon was one not securely fastened to the deck; one that moves about unpredictably and dangerously after being fired, causing as much potential harm to the gun crew as to their intended target.Uh, Faldo...didn't ya see the twinkle in me eye when I was a-tellin' the aboveforementioned yarn? 
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#91131
01/06/2003 6:24 PM
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the twinkle in me eye
Uh-huh.
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#91132
01/06/2003 6:42 PM
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Was interested to hear today that there is a link between the expressions "big shot" and "loose woman". - STALES FALDAGE: (post edit apology, mw) said "cannons" in whiteout. One is a bore with big balls and one balls with a big bore. Honest Jackie, I don't like this kind of stuff. I just wanted to try to clear this space for erudite studies about words. ()
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#91133
01/06/2003 6:47 PM
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both are cannons
There you go again. I din't say nothin of the sort!
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#91134
01/06/2003 9:17 PM
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Beware of the left hand thread. And tight is preferable to loose.
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#91135
01/07/2003 12:47 AM
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Bill:
In my mind, a cannon has no rifling in the barrel. They were basically smooth-bores, I thought. I looked up cannon in the OED and found this: . A piece of ordnance; a gun or fire-arm of a size which requires it to be mounted for firing. (The leading current sense.) The following varieties are mentioned in the 16th-17th c.: Canon Royall, height 8 1/2 in.; shot 66 lbs. Canon, height 8 in.; shot 60 lbs. Canon Sarpentine, height 7 1/2 in.; shot 53 lbs. Bastard Canon, height 7 in.; shot 41 lbs. Demy Canon, height 6 1/2 in.; shot 30 lbs. Canon Petro, height 6 in.; shot 24 lbs.
The various sizes are of interest, particularly the canon petro. I wondered if it has any relationship to a petard, but apparently it doesn't. There's no definition in the OED for petro other than as a combining name for rock or petroleum, but petard comes back as having derived from the french word for fart, peter, with one of those accenty things over the first e.
I also looked up rifle; the first use of that word with relation to a gunbarrel is 1750, the middle of the 18th century, which lends some confirmation to my supposition that cannon is an earlier invention and was essentialy a smooth-bore.
TEd
TEd
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#91136
01/07/2003 1:10 AM
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>was essentially a smooth-bore.
Something that can also be said of just about any Tony Blair oration.
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#91137
01/07/2003 1:58 AM
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teD, they began rifling the barrels of cannon in the US during the recent unpleasantness (Civil War, that is).
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#91138
01/07/2003 1:08 PM
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Alrighty then - enough's enough. Thanks all for your efforts, the q was harder than I thought. To quote myself, "Any guesses as to what the common thread is?The answer that question is "cotton". As for the link between the two phrases, I'm told (and my sources are fallible) that both phrases arose in South East USA - cotton country. So the story goes, when an important person sailed into the cotton ports the ship they were aboard fired one of its cannon. The bigger the bang the more important the personage. Hence "big shot". During the Civil War there were numerous Southern society women widowed. With a need to generate an income but without a bread winner, many sought employment at the cotton mills. They were well used to turning themselves out in full corsets, but soon found these too restrictive for mill work. By loosening their corsets they were better able to do the job expected of them. The same women were obviously keen to catch themselves a wealthy mill owner and therefore were the subject of derision by their more 'common' co-workers. No doubt the notion of loose-corseted women rapidly evolved into something more lurid among the worker folk. stales
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#91139
01/07/2003 1:31 PM
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I seem to remember in the first of t;he Godfather series Mario Puzo mentioned early Italian
mobster leaders carried "pezo de novante" - ninety calibre pistols. Never saw name of
maker. But ninety calibre was indeed a "big shot".(PS - I'm unsure of spelling)
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#91140
01/07/2003 1:35 PM
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#91141
01/07/2003 2:13 PM
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member
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cotton? good i haven't been guessing
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#91142
01/07/2003 2:28 PM
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I think someone is having us on!
TEd
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#91143
01/07/2003 2:35 PM
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having us on
I found nothing about the origin of the phrase "loose woman" in any of my reputable word and phrase origin fave sites, probably because it doesn't really need an explanation. The loose corset theory sounds like a folk etymology. Refering to someone of loose moral standards seems pretty upfront to me.
The late origin of "big shot" would seem to argue against any cannon salute explanation. Is there any evidence that cannon salutes were ever used for anyone other than a head of state or other highly placed statesman or military type? And even then, it's not the size of the shot but the number of guns fired that denotes rank.
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#91144
01/07/2003 3:21 PM
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And even then, it's not the size of the shot but the number of guns fired that denotes rank.Must...resist...temptation...
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#91145
01/07/2003 4:19 PM
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Must...resist...temptation...~ WhitmanOneill Why WO'N , nobody else has.
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#91146
01/07/2003 4:27 PM
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resist...temptation
If you're tempted by that, perhaps you need to examine some issues.
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#91147
01/07/2003 4:48 PM
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If you're tempted by that, perhaps you need to examine some issues.Yes, but, unfortunately, the Issue Examiner is away on holiday.
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#91148
01/07/2003 4:54 PM
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away on holiday
I guess you're on your own, then. Good luck.
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#91149
01/07/2003 11:15 PM
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Posts: 872
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Gee Whiz gang, I hate the term "issues" it somehow implies a false focus on things that are ever-so-rightly confined and virtuous and therefore important, but all it really says is that "my thought are "in" and therefore current". Good Lord, don't people anymore think?  ???
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#91150
01/08/2003 12:45 AM
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Next to myself, I like cotton best. But not in thread. All my old shirts used to lose buttons
sust because mildew got into the cotton thread. Synthetic thread lasts. Badword cotton thread.
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#91151
01/08/2003 1:00 AM
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Ohmigawd, I wish I'd found this thread (ahem) earlier. You people crack me up! First the obvious answer [donning GQ hat] is put in white, then all of you go off on the tangent of loose cannons, which wasn't even a PART of the original quiz. Stales, Honey--Ah hate to bring up this possibility, but Ah do believe the corset story smacks more of imagination than fact. Smooth bore/Tony Blair: snort!
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#91152
01/08/2003 1:17 AM
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Bill:
I'd not heard that before about the thread mildewing, and it doesn't seem likely that it's mildew.
Cotton thread should always be used with cotton cloth because synthetic thread cuts cotton. Peggy will not use anything except cotton fabric to make quilts with, and she always always always uses cotton thread with it. Cotton thread admittedly isn't as strong, but your quilts don't break apart on top of you either.
TEd
For WarpWondering:
Egyptian cotton is softer, and has much longer fibers than does cotton grown here in the US. This makes it possible to make thinner thread, which means you can put more threads to the inch. And the more threads to the inch the better quality and the better feel to the fabric.
TEd
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#91153
01/08/2003 1:20 AM
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#91154
01/08/2003 2:13 AM
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Dear TEd: I didn't grow any fungi or whatever to prove it, but I have had every thread holding a
shirt button break as though it had been soaked in strong chemical. Mildew seems to be the only
explanation. It is a a bit tricky sewing with nylon or other synthetic thread. I can understand a
quilter not wanting to bother with it. My wife wouldn't. She also would use a machine to quit, until
she got very painful repetitive motion injury, and could no sew by hand any longer. I despse quilts
because they are so easily damaged, particulary by washing. They may be an art form, but their real
reason for existing was high cost of fabric a hundred years ago meant old garments were worth
salvaging, even small pieces. Quilts today are a stupid anachronism.
And everybody seems to have overlooked fact I said I hate synthethics in contact with me. But
shirts with fabric made with synthetic core wrapped with cotton make good sense. And if I replace
a button, I do it with nylon or other synthetic thread. Even though the shirt will wear out before
the button breaks off again. End of rant.
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#91155
01/08/2003 3:16 AM
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Quilts today are a stupid anachronism
Well, I suppose blankets and bedspreads do keep us as physically warm as quilts do. I do happen to think most quilts are pretty, but to me they are more than something pretty, or something to keep us warm. To me, they serve as a tangible reminder of how things used to be, and how lucky I am not to have to scrimp and save every scrap. I think that if a person makes a quilt, particularly as a gift, that it is a labor of love; and it may be a display of skill, as well, though to me that's secondary.
In the book "Christy" by Catherine Marshall, there is a scene where Christy is at the home of a destitute mountain woman, and notices the quilt with its unusual pattern. The woman says that she has looked out the cabin's one window and memorized how the moon and stars look through it at different times, and transferred those patterns onto the quilt. This woman had combined creativity with necessity, to my way of thinking.
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