#90450
01/02/2003 4:06 PM
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Posts: 6,296
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#90451
01/02/2003 6:09 PM
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Not one thing in my OP was in conflict with this statement and so there must be something else that is a requirement, elsewise my statement would not have been associated with imperialism.
Just a generic wish FF, (more like a wistful thought). I did not imply or intend to either, that you said anything to the contrary.
I don't understand why 'reasons' is quoted above.
That's just me trying to tell everyone who's reading, that I am stressing tonally, on the word reasons, that's all. I struggle with transliterating intonation 
As for the allusion to imperialism, it seemed like a bit of a sweeping statement to make, the one about people being 'told' that they 'should' be offended and therefore they are. It is as far as I know, quite a difficult task to brainwash a mass of people to believe in something like that. Especially, in the current omnipotent culture of globalisation, wherein people despite different ethnic backgrounds want to blend imperceptibly, acutely aware, that it is in the blending, that belonging, imaginary or otherwise, can blossom. When such is the urge, it is extremely difficult to sustain a feeling of being offended, unless the stimulus is offensive in the first place.
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#90452
01/02/2003 7:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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For you and all the other teachers in the world:
Just look over your shoulder.
TEd
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#90453
01/02/2003 7:09 PM
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Win - ALT-0174
A million thanks, kind Faldage! You have given me much relief! beatific
Here's to you then Mr.Eliot,
Sunlight on a broken column ALT-0174
Edit: What IS that!!??   What a terrible admission of Luddism! And just when, I was feeling light and cool! Shall try again
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#90454
01/02/2003 7:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
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maahey, hold down the Alt key whilst pressing the 0174 sequence, on your keypad (on the right); you should then see nothing until releasing Alt, when automagically the ® appears, et voilá.
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#90455
01/02/2003 7:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
As for the allusion to imperialism, it seemed like a bit of a sweeping statement to make, the one about people being 'told' that they 'should' be offended and therefore they are. It is as far as I know, quite a difficult task to brainwash a mass of people to believe in something like that. Especially, in the current omnipotent culture of globalisation, wherein people despite different ethnic backgrounds want to blend imperceptibly, acutely aware, that it is in the blending, that belonging, imaginary or otherwise, can blossom. When such is the urge, it is extremely difficult to sustain a feeling of being offended, unless the stimulus is offensive in the first place.
I don't think it requires anything approaching brainwashing, per se. "Brainwashing" is a bit of a broad term, in any case, but the transference of opinions can happen by many means. However, close and continual contact over a long period of time can make silly ideas seem reasonable. Nor do I think that choosing to be offended is the only thing that happens. Rather, I think it is the case for a great many who have been schooled and coached in a particular way. For example, most of the asians I know majored in engineering and the hard sciences. None (of this number) has any problem with being refered to as an oriental. Not one. The only one I personally knew who *was* offended by it was a humanities major who had taken some kind of class at Berkeley wherein he learned the evilness of it all. The vast majority of the asians I know aren't even aware they're supposed to offended at it - and one of them is extremely pissed off that a other asians get to determine that he's an asian instead of an oriental. This brings up another point, as I mentioned previously, of some vocal minority getting to decide what everyone else gets called. It also brings up the point that innumerable times members of group X have to continually correct their usage of the term Y ..."Y, er, I mean Y-prime." It seems pretty clear that offense in these cases is contrived - when the offendee has to keep reminding himself that he's supposed to be offended.
And again there are the cases where the language is just plain stupid - as in "people of color." Others are allowed to use this term to their heart's content. (Some people actually *do* have the good manners not to go around correcting others.) That's not to say that I should be compelled to use a term which I myself find repugnant.
Surely, most people would agree that the infamous N-word is impolite at best, though I find the use of the "N-word" instead of just saying the word, while stupid, is just one of the cases where I'll accept the herd's view over good sense (Not everything's worth arguing about - with a proviso - those blacks who use it frequently in front of whites should not be surprised when those same whites use the term.) Same for words like Pickaninny, and many other racial epithets.
This view has nothing whatever to do with imperialism. And there is not just a single impulse to blend in. There are conflicting impulses to blend in AND ALSO to stand apart as an individual and as a member of a subgroup - particularly when one senses distinct advantage in that membership (moral superiority, etc).
k
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#90456
01/03/2003 2:26 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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I like the last 2 lines.
A sweet disorder in the dress
Kindles in clothes a wantonness:
A lawn about the shoulders thrown
Into a fine distraction--
An erring lace, which here and there
Enthrals the crimson stomacher--
A cuff neglectful, and thereby
Ribbands to flow confusedly--
A winning wave, deserving note,
In the tempestuous petticoat--
A careless shoe-string, in whose tie
I see a wild civility--
Do more bewitch me than when art
Is too precise in every part.
Sweet Disorder by Robert Herrick (1591-1674)
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#90457
01/03/2003 4:45 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Faldage AND tsuwm!!! My year is starting off with a bang, for sure!! ® Ah ha!  reinstated! I didnt have Num Lock on and thats why it wasnt working! Thank you all over again.
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#90458
01/03/2003 12:48 PM
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These lines instantly reminded me of a poem titled, Phenomenal Woman, by Maya Angelou. The unabridged version can be accessed at this site: http://www.empirezine.com/spotlight/maya/maya-p1.htmEnjoy!
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#90459
01/03/2003 2:17 PM
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Dear FF, I dont believe that anyone is taking strictly divergent postions on this subject. It also is one of those topics that one could write reams and reams on, or talk for hours about. Very difficult to expound one's thoughts in a comprehensive fashion without hogging the thread and converting a simple post into an essay! I believe there is agreement overall and have just one small comment to make, about the term 'Oriental'. There is a clear semantic difference between Oriental and Asian. If there are Asians that are not objecting to be called this, that's all right perhaps, as regards PC behavioural ethics, but that does not automatically make the usage right. Oriental does not apply to a race or an ethnic group. Edward Said, possibly explains it best when he says that it is essentially a term concocted by the British, to describe everything that was not Occidental. Asia is probably the most ethnically diverse land mass on earth and exquisite cultural and ethnic diversity exists in relatively small groupings of people within Asian nation states themselves. And so, whilst Asians such as Indians, Iranians or Kazakhs might not consider the term Oriental a slur of any sort, it is reasonable to expect that some annoyance will be generated by this generic clubbing of races and its use might even be misconstrued as a demonstration of disinterest in other cultures. Thanks FF, for the interesting exchange of views.
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#90460
01/03/2003 3:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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And so, whilst Asians such as Indians, Iranians or Kazakhs might not consider the term Oriental a slur of any sort, it is reasonable to expect that some annoyance will be generated by this generic clubbing of races and its use might even be misconstrued as a demonstration of disinterest in other cultures.
The same can be said for the term Hispanic. I feel it's, at least, improper, if not downright insulting to lump people as culturally diverse as Mexicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, continental Spanish, Argentinians, Filipinos, etc., all under one term, and I try to avoid using it in favor of individual descriptives or "Latin." (i.e. "of Filipino descent", etc). Hispanic is like a generic hyphen without a hyphen. That's the problem with hyphenations, for instance, African-American...where does that leave the Egyptians, the South Africans, etc? Interestingly, we are good friends with a family from Nigeria, and they are very particular about stressing their Nigerian heritage and vehemently dislike and object to the term "African-American". The same with European-American...the Greeks, the Finnish, the Russians, the Portugese, the Swedes, the Irish, etc., are just too diverse to be generically indicated.
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#90461
01/03/2003 5:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
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don't forget "white".
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90462
01/03/2003 7:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
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anyone?
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#90463
01/03/2003 8:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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Curiously enough, Italians aren't blanketed into the the term Hispanic, though Italian men are often referred to as Latin Lovers. And, actually, the Italians and ancient Romans are the only true Latins, so how did Latin come to mean Spanish culture? Perhaps because Spanish is more directly derived from Latin than any other language except for Italian?...Faldage? emanuela? And what is the differenece between Latin and Latino in describing Spanish-speaking people and culture? Words?You mean there are no words on this thread?  What have I been reading? 
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#90464
01/04/2003 2:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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Sliding even further off topic: I read Phenomenal Woman, but instead of enjoying it, I was very uncomfortable all the way through it. I can't imagine...my goodness, how could anybody go around bragging on themselves like that? The concept is utterly foreign to me. No, no, no. I could never...
Back to words [gasp of relief]--is "stomacher" a word from former days? I can't see myself going up to someone and saying, "My dear, what a lovely stomacher; wherever did you get it?"
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#90465
01/04/2003 2:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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#90466
01/04/2003 8:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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>And so, whilst Asians such as Indians, Iranians or Kazakhs might not consider the term Oriental a slur of any sort, it is reasonable to expect that some annoyance will be generated by this generic clubbing of races and its use might even be misconstrued as a demonstration of disinterest in other cultures.
Surely the same could be said for "Asian" also. A person born and bred in Vladivostok is Asian, so is a Laotian, my Anglo-Indian father, and a sabra Israeli. In what way is "Asian" a less meaningless, potentially insulting "generic clubbing" than Oriental? I read somewhere that when Japan developed its concept of the "Great East Asian Co-operation Sphere", or whatever it called its 1930s imperial dream, it borrowed the word "Asian" from English, as the concept did not exist in Japanese.
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#90467
01/04/2003 9:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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WW, the woman in the poem just walked around talking about how, er, phenomenal she is; naming off all the ways. Not for me! Eek. You can read it on the site, if you want.
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#90468
01/05/2003 7:41 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
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I am sorry you didn't enjoy the poem, Jackie. To me, it reads as if the author starts out in a self consciously reassuring fashion and as the words roll on, the mood effortlessly segues into one that is confident and celebratory. In an environment that constantly floods us with utopian sterotypes of beauty and perfection and where eating disorders by association, are ever on the rise, this poem seems like a gentle yet firm reminder of all the glorious diversity of beauty in the form of creation. And thus echoed Herrick's words:
A sweet disorder......
....Do more bewitch me than when art
Is too precise in every part.
Thanks Jackie, for posting the poem; It was a pleasure to read.
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