#90370
12/27/2002 11:44 PM
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Did you know the phrase "nitty-gritty" is a racist term, and in UK you can be disciplined for using it. Somebody allegedly discovered that it referred to detritus in bilge of slave ships. Believe it or not. Here is URL to BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/1988681.stmQuinion says nitty-gritty first recorded in 1950s/ So "slave ship" origin seems impossible. http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nit2.htm
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#90371
12/28/2002 4:09 PM
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PC gone mad? ... sounds like it.
I think the most logical explanation is given by Quinion, being that "it is a reduplication - using the same mechanism that has given us namby-pamby and itsy-bitsy - of the standard English word gritty."
Case closed in my eyes.
What really amuses me is how valiantly and with which authority people will support there own version of a word's etymology in a conversation, as if it gave them a deeper understanding of any "true meaning' the word might have. Strangely enough, this tendency seems to be all the more solid, the more ludicrous, abstract or iffy the etymological explanation is.
I recently discussed the origins of the word 'posh' (discussed previously here I believe) with someone who was utterly certain that it was short for "Port Out, Starboard Home". I suggested that this was possibly just a story, if a really good one, and that it had absolutely no proof to support it. This was out of the question for my conversation partner, they had heard it on the radio and many people believed it. For me it once again reinforced that the notion of truth as absurd outside the realms of theological and philosophical contexts. For if one person believes something, they're a loony and it's a lie; if a group does they're a cult and the notion is mystical nonsense, and if 80% of people do then it's truth.
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#90372
12/28/2002 11:28 PM
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Does this mean The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band has to change it's name, then?  And is gritty non-offensive without nitty? Can nitty stand alone inoffensively without gritty? Is gritty-nitty acceptable? Is it the optional hyphen that drives it into denigration? Are the Thought Police done disemboweling the language, yet?  The bilge in slave ships, or any ship, was also dirty water. Can we say that anymore? Can we say dirty? Can we say water? Can we say bilge? Can we say the bilge in slave ships without being accused of alluding to the nitty-gritty? (if, indeed, as by says, that myth of association is true) For years I was openly embracing the new myth about the black African Cleopatra until I realized one day...wait a minute, she was a Ptolemy, she was Greek! As I said before, that kind of false historic revisionism for PC purposes irks me, mainly because I love history too much to subvert it falsely for modern agendas. And I'd feel the same about contrived etymologies for words and phrases to fit the same purposes (though I never gave this much thought, nor, indeed, harbored any notion that anyone would go to such lengths to garnish another notch on the PC belt until this thread, but evidently...sigh).
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#90373
12/29/2002 1:31 AM
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Another version of the "truth":
The noun nitty-gritty dates from the mid-1900s and alludes to the detailed (“nitty”) and possibly unpleasant (“gritty”) issue in question.
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The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer. Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. Yes, by, it came as a shock--a series of them, rather--to realize that for many many things there is no one, exact, right answer. And even now I find that thought unsettling. I want to know everything about something I'm interested in, right down to the last detail (though not necessarily the nitty gritty!  ), and I want my knowledge to be concrete and certain. Grr. I grew up in an era (barely) that taught that "the guvmint" has the ultimate, and correct, answers. Well, it didn't take me long, once I started working for the state, to realize that no one does. Government, and even the military, are made up of just people. Not necessarily the brightest and best, either. As I said before, that kind of false historic revisionism for PC purposes irks me, mainly because I love history too much to subvert it falsely for modern agendas. And I'd feel the same about contrived etymologies for words and phrases to fit the same purposes (though I never gave this much thought, nor, indeed, harbored any notion that anyone would go to such lengths to garnish another notch on the PC belt until this thread, but evidently...sigh). I agree, Sweet WO'N. Though as I hinted in my paragraph above, I no longer trust that history really happened the way I was taught that it did. "History" is generally recorded by the victors, as my husband says; and he's right. To say nothing of laziness and outright falsehoods. I think one should be sure of one's facts, before yelling about political correctness; and even then, the caterwauling isn't always necessary. (For ex., something I've griped about here before: changing "man" or "men" in hymns written long ago to "all", or "people". Yuck!) We cannot make retribution for every wrong done down through history. Let's stick to what is relevant today.
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#90374
12/29/2002 1:42 AM
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(For ex., something I've griped about here before: changing "man" or "men" in hymns written long ago to "all", or "people". Yuck!)
no, but we can raise our children not to think of a certain gender when they sing those hymns, because to some of them, man, or men has very negative connotations. besides, why shouldn't we use language today that speaks more of the way we understand things? personally, I would rather bite the bullet and re-learn some things rather than forcing my children to be the ones that make the change. we sacrifice all sorts of things for our children, why aren't you willing to give up little things like a little language in an old song? things aren't what they used to be and they never were.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90375
12/29/2002 3:35 AM
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why shouldn't we use language today that speaks more of the way we understand things? personally, I would rather bite the bullet and re-learn some things rather than forcing my children to be the ones that make the change. we sacrifice all sorts of things for our children, why aren't you willing to give up little things like a little language in an old song? things aren't what they used to be and they never were.
Mercy--this wasn't what I was expecting to be challenged on! But... partially, this is my inherent respect (but not blind respect) for the old--people, too. And partly my innate dislike of change. I'd like to key in on two words you used: 'today', and 'little'. We CAN use language that is relevant to today, in our compositions. I would take offense at a contemporary hymn that essentially said worship was for males only. We can teach our children what I was taught: that that was the way people talked/wrote back then, but that we know better now. It is, as you say, a little thing, to leave or change the language in an old song. I said (I hope) in my other post that I think that we owe a measure of respect to the music and to the composer, and that to change what he or she intended violates that respect. Each time a new hymnal is considered, decisions are made to leave certain ones out. I for one prefer to let them die this "natural" death than to alter what has withstood the test of time.
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#90376
12/29/2002 4:23 AM
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I have to agree with Jackie on this one, etaoin. I feel that going back and changing works of art (re: song lyrics) is censoring the artist's work and impairing, if not ruining, their sense of history and their poetry. I remember being aghast when I first encountered in my folk songshare circles, a new sing-along book which broadcast on the jacket that it had been "edited" for "lyrics which may be offensive", and was co-edited by, of all people, Mr. Freedom Fighter himself, Pete Seeger! Here they took the audacious presumption of changing "a brotherhood of man" in John Lennon's Imagine, and, ridiculously enough, "sitting around the campfire, everybody's high" in John Denver's Rocky Mountain High, with "everybody's high" being the offending phrase, evidently. C'mon, for cryin' out loud, you can be high on nature, high on life, in high spirits, and if you are high on pot in that mellow, friendly circumstance, so what?
When we start censoring John Denver, I thought, when Pete Seeger starts censoring John Denver, we are getting into serious trouble here, folks. And this sort of ludicrous butchery was rampant all throughout the songbook. This really started me on a hard rethink of what was going on with this whole PC process. I had fully embraced, and still do, the sensible changes where appropriate...firefighters for firemen, for instance. But, like many things, it started out with good intentions, and then, for some reason, people started running amok with it. There's no freedom in having to analyse every word I say or write before I write or say it because I might offend somebody when I am not, nor have I ever been, the kind of person who seeks to hurt people that way (except, of course, in some personal squabbles, with personal vindictive). And you might say, well, there's some unintended subtle nuance of offense there, which was the initial reason for all this, and that might be true...but then that perspective has grown to presuppose an ingrained and intentional, albeit subconscious, racism, sexism, or whatever the hateism, just because you're "carelessly" not-PC...and I resent this negative painting of my, or anybody else's, character just because someone now decides to deem some new term or part of language as undesirable, as in the instance of nitty gritty.
And I will always sing "a brotherhood of man" in John Lennon's Imagine because it's beautiful, and it has the most meaning for me, and it's what the man meant (a poetical and musical genius IMHO, BTW) when he wrote the song, the image the poet chose, and if there's a woman or feminist activist out there who takes umbrage at that, I'm sorry...but that's her problem...to think I intend any disrespect or offense by singing that touching and beautiful song, a song of love and peace, is just plain ridiculous.
And sitting around the campfire everybody's high...always and forever! I mean, sheesh!
When you're sitting around a campfire is your mood usually low?!
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#90377
12/29/2002 11:10 AM
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While it is true that the pendulum of history has swung to oversensitivity after centuries of episodes of man's inhumanity to man [sic]; I'm with Jackie and Juan on this one: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. For aesthetic reasons, I stick with King James' translators of the Bible; for historical reasons, it is ludicrous to suppose Christ could have been a woman. Those subjective thoughts aside, you can't go messing around with somebody's art. It's like putting a fig leaf on Michelangelo's David or something. Also, consider this: in Old English man meant 'human being.' The female sex was denoted as wyfman and the male, as wæpman. Maybe this historical insight might help those sensitive children get over their negative feelings, and see the word in a broader sense, eta?
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#90378
12/29/2002 1:16 PM
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It's like putting a fig leaf on Michelangelo's David or something.Yes, and that would be a mighty big fig leaf! 
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#90379
12/29/2002 1:31 PM
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And here's another "for instance":
Sometime during his second term Bill Clinton made a speech or comment using the word welsh or welsher. There was a public outcry by a group of Welsh-Americans (The Welsh-American League or something like that) who said it denigrated the Welsh and they demanded an apology which Clinton conceded to give. Oh, c'mon...
I've been using that word all my life as welch or welcher meaning reneging on a bet or promise, never having the slightest clue it ever had anything to do with the Welsh until this "controversy" erupted. It was just a word to me, and, as such, of course, carried no intention of insult or offense to anyone except for the deadbeat friend I directed it towards (usually in a joking manner). And I'm sure that the word, in either form, had become as generic to everyone else. Suddenly, it's on the PC list, because a small group, who probably don't represent or speak for all Welsh-Americans or the Welsh people, decided, after all this time, that it is now offensive.
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#90380
12/29/2002 2:47 PM
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Welsh, itself, being derived from a Sassenach word meaning foreigner.
What *should be considered offensive about Michelangelo's David is that it isn't circumcised.
There is that other nagging question: If you know that a word or phrase is going to be offensive, however undeservedly, to a large group of people, and there is another term that can be used just as easily, is it right to continue using the offensive term?
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#90381
12/29/2002 3:52 PM
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Dear Faldage: "Taffy was a Welchman, Taffy was a thief........"
Must I now forego asking for a piece of taffy?
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#90382
12/29/2002 4:43 PM
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There is that other nagging question: If you know that a word or phrase is going to be offensive, however undeservedly, to a large group of people, and there is another term that can be used just as easily, is it right to continue using the offensive term?I think, to a large group of people, is the key here, or obvious oversight (as when, knowing there are many women firefighters you use the exclusionary fire men...however, when talking about a male or a small group of males who are firefighters, then fireman or "men" is still okay as an option) is the key phrase here. Obviously the "n" word is offensive, as is "Dago" for Italians, "Polack" for Poles, "Mick" for the Irish, "Limey" for the English, "Hunky" for Hungarians (although, being of Hungarian descent, I happen to think Hunky's pretty cool, actually  ), etc. [though, none of the ethnic friends I've had over the years seemed to mind when these epithets were employed jokingly with each other in private...not including the "n" word, of course] And mulyak for Slovaks and Slav immigrants in general...this, curiously enough, was first employed by the first Carpatho-Russian/Slovak immigrants once they were established and doing well to disparage and look down upon the "fresh-off-the-boaters". I think the Italians had a similar vindictive, mullein. In our family it's the worst heavy artillery you can roll out in a squabble, to call somebody that, mulyak...especially the older generations. But pruning pieces of words, and generic pronouns, and digging up new nuances of meaning to impart to long-standing terms to render them taboo, because small segments of certain groups demand it, seems silly and a bit self-defeating. A diehard feminist friend of mine, a practicing Wiccan and folk musician, who's into The Goddess and the fairy culture, etc., finally announced at a performance one night that she was no longer bothering to use the sexist changes to words as she had been for years, because, as she explained, one day she found herself wanting to take the "king" out of kingdom, and decided, then and there, that she, and others, were really going off the wall about all this, and that there were far better ways to work for the empowerment of women than by changing all these little pieces and nuances of words. And that feeling threatened by these words was not affirming her womanhood. Amen.
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#90383
12/29/2002 6:26 PM
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well, I try to use other words because I'm trying to be nice. and I'll continue to teach my children thusly.
I'm done.
edit: this is in no way an implication that any of you are not nice. sorry for any misunderstanding.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90384
12/29/2002 6:51 PM
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well, I try to use other words because I'm trying to be nice. and I'll continue to teach my children thusly.
But that's one of the points here, eta...you're already nice, so you don't have to try to be nice. You're allowing others to paint you as unnice until you prove, or to make you prove, your nicety...that's not fair to you, or anybody. It's almost like the Catholic concept of Original Sin...which I'm well-familiar with.
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#90385
12/29/2002 8:02 PM
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>trying to be nice.
As I understand this thread, that's not even the point. The issue is, do we have the right to impose our current standards of "nice" on, to borrow a phrase that seems particularly apt, "prior art"? To me, that is quite different from using PC-isms in personal speech from personal choice. I say "Native Americans", partly because it seems more accurate, and partly to avoid confusion with my own Indian (subcontinental) heritage. That doesn't mean I would want to edit a work of art or literature that referred to Indians, nor would I ever say that, as a kid, I played cowboys and Native Americans. What one does with regard to one's own usage of language is one thing, but this thread really seems to be more about the propriety or otherwise of bowdlerising creative works to fit current estimations of acceptably inoffensive speech.
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#90386
12/29/2002 8:32 PM
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[though, none of the ethnic friends I've had over the years seemed to mind when these epithets were employed jokingly with each other in private...not including the "n" word, of course]
This seems to be belittling (to say the least) the art of Tupac Amaru Shakur (for example).
... and, pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is " The Goddess and the fairy culture, etc."?
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#90387
12/29/2002 10:49 PM
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... and, pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is " The Goddess and the fairy culture, etc."?
Well, musick, briefly, the Wiccan faith focuses on Nature through the feminine perspective of the Earth Mother or Goddess, and the fairies are seen as nature spirits that work in harmony with, and through the influence of, the Earth Mother, the Goddess. This can be traced back, in myth, to the Druid legend of Queen Mab, and the fairies and Little People of Celtic lore, among others.
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#90388
12/29/2002 11:51 PM
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...impose our current standards of "nice" on, to borrow a phrase that seems particularly apt, "prior art"? To me, that is quite different from using PC-isms in personal speech from personal choice.
Thanks, sjm--you said directly what I meant but couldn't seem to make clear with many times more words.
This very morning in church was an example; I had never realized this, but it is in our hymnal now that we are supposed to sing, "Good Christian Friends Rejoice". I ask you! As eta also indicated, this kind of thing comes down to personal choice; I am not so gung-ho on this point as to insist to my children that it should be the original way--but right now, you can bet I am singing "men" rejoice. Not all things are good just because they're old, but I happen to be the kind of person who doesn't like something I've enjoyed all my life messed with!
And, we all have our personal "lines in the sand"--some of us will always stop earlier or go further in our willingness to change whatever. And the decision-makers, whomever they happen to be, aren't going to please all of the people all of the time. Here's one change that I happen to agree was necessary: the line in My Old Kentucky Home that now reads: "'Tis summer, the people are gay;"
(This is Kentucky's state song, for those of you who didn't know.) The 1986 Kentucky state legislature officially put in the word people to replace the word darkies. Now, Stephen Foster wrote that song in 1853, and I imagine he meant the word merely descriptively. And I had sung the song that way all my life, but had not felt particularly comfortable with that word once I began to grow up.
There are some things I could say about why I disapprove of changing hymns and approve of changing our state song, but I won't go into that now. I was just using this as an example about personal choices. For all I know, my children and grand-children are/will find male-only words as offensive as I find that original word in My Old Kentucky Home now; but at present, I prefer to sing the hymns the way they were originally written--keeping in the back of my mind what my true beliefs are.
P.S.--eta, I understood (I think!) why you're doing what you said you are; and I didn't think you were implying that others are not nice, Sweetie. You're allowed to do what you want to; as are we all. Now, my ire would be up in a big hurry were you or anyone try to tell me I HAD to change this or that! I believe that may have been WO'N's point. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
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#90389
12/29/2002 11:56 PM
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My grand-daughter gave me Wordsmith's book for Christmas. I just discovered that he passed
a PC test. His Chapter 6, Reduplicatives, did not contain "nitty-gritty".
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#90390
12/30/2002 12:04 AM
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(Please correct me if I'm wrong.)you're not wrong.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90391
12/30/2002 12:59 AM
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My grand-daughter gave me Wordsmith's book for Christmas. I just discovered that he passed
a PC test. His Chapter 6, Reduplicatives, did not contain "nitty-gritty".Well that's good enough for me, folks. I will now take time off from this board to go through my 777 posts on this board to purge them of any comment that got right down to the real XXXXX-XXXXXX. Be back in a few hours. 
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#90392
12/30/2002 1:34 AM
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"'Tis summer, the people are gay;"
?
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#90393
12/30/2002 2:33 AM
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" 'Tis summer, the people are gay;"AAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!! Thanks a lot faldage. Yall please excuse me for a few hours while I check my last 777 posts and see if I've called any of my straight friends "gay" or my gay friends "queer". Be back in a three or four hours. Gee Wiz!
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#90394
12/30/2002 2:35 AM
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Sorry--guess I thought because *I* know it, everybody does.
Stephen Foster wrote it as 'Tis summer, the darkies are gay. Don't think I want to get into the gay part.
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#90395
12/30/2002 2:38 AM
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Dear Faldage: To PC, or not to PC. That is the question. I still remember the psychologist with
all the mannerisms of a severe gender identification problem using the term "gay" to mean
something vile. I have no wish to persecute or condemn those so afflicted, but I cannot help
resenting a fine word, also family name of some of my friends, being used to describe something
that should have stayed in the closet.
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#90396
12/30/2002 1:31 PM
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#90397
12/30/2002 1:53 PM
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funny, for me, changing a few words has kept me out of the cesspool...
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90398
12/30/2002 2:02 PM
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when I explained to them that now we don or put on our gay apparel, there was a peal of laughter
If you'd sing the right lyrics you'd avoid this problem entirely:
Deck Us All
Deck us all with Boston Charlie,
Walla Walla, Wash. and Kalamazoo.
Nora's freezing on the trolley
Swaller dollar, cauliflower, Alleygaroo
Don't we know archaic barrel
Lullaby, Lilla boy, Louisville Lou.
Trolley Molly don't love Harold
Boola boola! Pensacoola, Hullabaloo.
Nary a mention of no gay nothing.
when you sing "We Three Kings of Orient Are..." you're gonna think "...tried to smoke a rubber cigar."
Nuh unh. Not me. It's "...tried to smoke a loaded cigar."
Preserve the art. It's a historical record, at the least, and some artist's labored-over expressed essence at best.
True. If the composer wrote music to go with the words Agnus Dei it's going to sound wrong if you change the words to Lamb of God and vice versa. Changing men to friends pales in comparison.
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#90399
12/30/2002 2:32 PM
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#90400
12/30/2002 2:40 PM
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The big problem with this PC cesspool is it forces us to go to that layer of the brain that is touchy as hell and hurt and limping and pathetic and offended and hypersensitive and say: "Dwell here. This is where We have come to Be and This is where We will Remain." It is a trap. It is Poison. It keeps us from considering any other possibility. It sees us as both an Enemy of the People and the Victim of the People. And it's hard being in the cesspool while functioning both as a potential victim and enemy--no room for sense of history, or acts of compassion, or pure fun, or anything else. We become absurd there because we do not allow ourselves--stuck in the pit--to think about anything other than plausible offensiveness. ~ wordwind Golly. That was well put. A tip of the hat to you. I have nothing else to add or say other than... "What she said."
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#90401
12/30/2002 2:43 PM
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But I'm not talking about using common sense here. I'm talking about dwelling in PC-ness. Dwelling there. It's a station of a place--PC Police walking the streets, their boots making the steady beat, beat, beat.
agreed.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90402
12/30/2002 3:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
Wow, (and I don't mean our friend wow), I mean, oh my! There seems to be quite a bit of knee-jerk reaction to this pc thing in here. While I think all sides have their legitimate issues, I'll side with etaoin on this one. Surely the good people of this board know that words are incredibly powerful and have been the impetus for great good as well as great evil throughout human existance. While I certainly appreciate history and have a deep respect for my elders, including the ancient ones (and have no problem explaining things to younger people about the sociology of a different time/place) I do think that one might be thoughtful about the way certain words have been used against others.
And yes, Juan (Oh, did that come from W'On? I've been trying to figure that one out for a month now?!) it is appalling that Pete Seeger, of all people (!) would rewrite such a songbook. But we can choose what we wish to do, and to me, this is precisely the point. I am happy that each of you has a unique point of view, and even more gratified that we can share them in here.
But in the end, for me, words can be and and are often enormously hurtful (despite what is intended) and speech is often used to incite others to action, unfortunately, not always for the good. So I will continue to try to be thoughful, while not embracing the extremes of our wiccan sisters! (Who in the AWAD version of spellcheck came out as Wichita!!!! or was that Witchita!!!)
MM
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#90403
12/30/2002 3:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I agree with all that's been said here regarding PCness run rampant. but here's the thing: with upwards of 600,000 words to choose from it's really the height of verbal laziness, at best, to personally choose a word that's overloaded and fraught with negative connotations when another word with a more precise sense is doubtless available. (see gay, niggardly, etc.) then you can go someplace such as this and complain about the vicissitudes of man.
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#90404
12/30/2002 4:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
My goodness but aren't we taking ourselves seriously!
If all this Political Correctness keeps going at the current pace we will soon wipe out all double entendre jokes ... no more "Rocky and Bullmoose," cartoons on TV, no more having adult fun at children's movies with the things that go over the kids' heads but tickle the funnybone of all the parents dragooned into going to the latest "family" movie.
Anyone see "Spy Kids?" which was fun for the kids but was peppered with some pretty un-PC things for the grownups to keep the adults from expiring with boredom.
And what about Shaggy Dog stories? and TEd's puns ?and ...and .. and... if this keeps up I'm going to have to go have a good cry over the demise of all the gay abandon in the world!
I am all for eliminating or avoiding words that give real offense and are charged with hurtful meaning..like the n-word. But, c'mon, folks!
On the other hand : a few hundred years from now some group of musicians will be able to make a good living by performing the resurrected original forms of the changed songs, carols and hymns!!!! I mean, there are groups now that sing Ye Olde Carols and fill all the theater seats! Then too, books can be written about the way PC swept the world. And another new writing genre may be born!
Meanwhile, I subscribe to the theory that if - for instance - everyone in the room is Catholic we can tell jokes about the Pope!
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#90405
12/30/2002 4:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Interestingly enough, the word "gay" has now been launched into a derisive connotation by the younger (college and under) generation in the expression "that's so gay" or substitute he, she, or it for "that". So do we need a new word again?
And, sometimes, there is now a hurtful, spiteful or even venegeful twinge to the historical and linguistic revisionisms launched by certain individuals or small groups of individuals within various groups, and I think it is this creeping reverse mean-spiritness that began leaving a lot of people cold about the direction this whole PC process is taking. For instance, it was released by some folks a few years back they had discovered that the model who sat for The Statue of Liberty (this will tie in with the PC/art debate) was a black woman (well, that's intriguing, I thought, something worthy to note historically if so), but then the article and implication took the stance that, since the model for the statue was a black woman it is therefore, now, a symbol for African-Americans and not the traditional symbol of European immigration. Now hold on there just a minute!, I thought. The Statue of Liberty is the cherished and time-honored symbol of the waves of European immigration that came to this country in the late 19th and early 20th Century, and since both sides of my family came here through Ellis Island, it is very meaningful and important to me. And nobody has the right to try to take that away from me. No matter who sat for that statue, if a Martian sat for that statue, it would still stand as a hallowed symbol of European immigration. And, truthfully, I felt insulted and offended, by what I felt to be a mean-spirited and spiteful attempt to strip The Statue of Liberty of its cherished symbolism. Yes, let history note that an African-American model sat for the statue if this is validated, but don't, then, strip the statue of its poignant symbolism and meaning for millions.
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#90406
12/30/2002 5:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa020900b.htmThe above URL debunks urban legend that a black woman was model for the Staute of Liberty. Incidentally, I learned a new word:"marquette" the preliminary small model of a large sculpture. There are so many sited about Marquette University and people named Marquette that I copied only one brief definition:A Marquette is a small version of a larger sculpture to be later reproduced in bronze or stone.
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#90407
12/30/2002 5:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
Thanks again, Dr. Bill for straightening us all out on this one. She certainly doesn't look African to me....
Can't we all just get along?....
(just joking, in case you didn't know!)
mm
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#90408
12/30/2002 5:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
And I have Dr. Bill to thank again for his urban legends site where I was able to check out that awful email I received years ago that took all of the joy out of 'picnic'ing. This whole thread brought that story back to my mind, but I thought it best, at the time, to leave it out of this conversation. Now I'm glad to find that it (thankfully) was untrue. If you think you know what I am talking about, just go to Dr. Bill's site and type in picnic!
It's time for a new thread, if not a new year!!!
maria
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#90409
12/30/2002 5:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
But pruning pieces of words, and generic pronouns, and digging up new nuances of meaning to impart to long-standing terms to render them taboo, because small segments of certain groups demand it, seems silly and a bit self-defeating.
Amen to that.
A diehard feminist friend of mine...finally announced at a performance one night that she was no longer bothering to use the sexist changes to words as she had been for years, because, as she explained, one day she found herself wanting to take the "king" out of kingdom, and decided, then and there, that she, and others, were really going off the wall about all this, and that there were far better ways to work for the empowerment of women than by changing all these little pieces and nuances of words. And that feeling threatened by these words was not affirming her womanhood.
That woman represents a level of intelligence and sensibility that is sorely missing from the whole PC debate. Lucky* for her, as a woman she has the "right" to arrive at this decision and maintain credibility.
*I'd change "lucky" to "luckily" but it goes against my anti-revisionist stance.
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