#90410
12/30/2002 5:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
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There seems to be quite a bit of knee-jerk reaction to this pc thing in here. - magimaria Oh dear I was afraid this thread would turn to knee-jerking. I wonder who's comments were the knee-jerking ones. Surely not mine. Yeah I know that sometimes I act before I think, and yeah, I know that I put up a tough-guy front that invites insensitive comments, but my tough-guy image is only a front for the loving caring sensitive person that is the real me. I am like everyone else, a human being with real feelings. And even if it is true, it hurts me deeply when someone calls what I write "knee jerk". Wait! Maybe it was faldage who reacted Knee-jerk.  Naw, the last man who called faldage a "jerk" is wearing the impression of a camera on his forehead. Oh well, I give up. Hey Magimaria! Which one of us had a knee-jerk reaction to PC ?
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#90411
12/30/2002 6:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Hey Milum: Why didn't you ask where "knee jerk" came from. It is one of those stupid parts
of a physical exam that is ttraditional, but very unlikely to yield and useful information. It is
part of neurological exam, and involve tapping the tendon just below the kneecap, which is
supposed to elicit brief contraction of quadriceps (I think). Long ago late stages of syphilis
might disable it. I can't think of anything else of much interest about it. I used to give
examiners a bad time, because mine is not readily elicited. I assured you Treponema pallidum
has never been a pal of mine. Actually I guess the cute little corkscrews got a new name. I'll
have to go check on that. Reminds me of definiton of alimony - the f-ing you get for the
f-ing you got. The corkscrews you get.......
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#90412
12/30/2002 6:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 77 |
Dear Imbiber (milum), Well, all of us really. I didn't expect such a knee-jerk reaction to my impudent 'knee-jerk' comment. We just all seemed to be getting a bit overly involved in this one....And I can't remember which comments provoked that out of me (could it have be the revered 'wow'?) but I doubt it was you. And of course, I would not have been referring to 'FALDAGE, The Magnificent', who appears to be the great Wizard of Oz in here. I certainly would not want to incur his wrath (I'm not really worried here. He doesn't acknowledge me!) So, don't get me in trouble. I think, in fact, it may have been Juan, who usually is a bit less prickly then in this particular thread. But, dear friends, as I am no longer a stranger(!), please take no offense at the ramblings of a little 'newbie' maria ps I'm still waiting for your treatise on speleogenisis....perhaps in the new year?....
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#90413
12/30/2002 7:04 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
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Obviously the "n" word is offensive (think it was WO'N said this?)
but NOT "niggardly," tsuwm. One of my brothers used this word in a meeting and was blasted for being racist; but the word actually has no racist connotations.
niggard: n. & adj.
n. mean or stingy person
adj. archaic = NIGGARDLY [Middle English, alteration of earlier (obsolete) nigon, prob. of Scandinavian origin: compare NIGGLE]
niggardly: adj. & adv.
1. stingy, parsimonious
2. meagre, scanty
adv. in a stingy or meagre manner
niggle: v. & n.
v. 1. intr. be over-attentive to details. 2. intr. find fault in a petty way. 3. tr. informal irritate; nag pettily.
n. a trifling complaint or criticism; a worry or annoyance. [apparently of Scandinavian origin: compare Norwegian nigla]
niggling: adj.
1. troublesome or annoying in a petty way.
2. trifling or petty.
If only the thought police were merely niggling. Unfortunately, they have far too much power.
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#90414
12/30/2002 7:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
While the Perpetrators of Correctness are numberous and vociferous, they are not bright enough
or brave enough to withstand a generous dose of ridicule which we must supply.
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#90415
12/30/2002 7:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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but NOT "niggardly," tsuwm.... the word actually has no racist connotations.I believe tsuwm is well aware of this, honey, as I guess are most of his interlocutors.
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#90416
12/30/2002 8:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think, in fact, it may have been Juan, who usually is a bit less prickly then in this particular thread.
Prickly?...hmmm...
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#90417
12/30/2002 8:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
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Bemused by the dichotomy of this thread, I shall simply offer the Zildian version of the above-named Xmas classic:
We three kings of Orient are
One on a tractor, two in a car
One on a scooter
Tooting his hooter
Following yonder star
Oh, oh
Star of wonder
Star of light
Star of bewdy, she'll be right
Star of glory, that's the story
Following yonder star . .
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#90418
12/30/2002 8:49 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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alright, already!
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90419
12/30/2002 8:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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"We just all seemed to be getting a bit overly involved in this one...."
Man, you ain't seen nothin', yet.
...oh, and yes, Juan comes from WO'n, but the real question is 'where does it go'.
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#90420
12/30/2002 8:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...oh, and yes, Juan comes from WO'n, but the real question is 'where does it go'.No...Juan came from musick, nick-namer extraodinaire!  but, then, so did WO'N...BTW, should we bring up looser/loser for the new folks?...naaaa.
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#90421
12/30/2002 9:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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alright, already!
Or, if you prefer, "All right, all ready!
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#90422
12/30/2002 9:59 PM
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Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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So I will continue to try to be thoughful, while not embracing the extremes of our wiccan sisters! Ah, but, see, magimaria...there are also Wiccan brothers!
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#90424
12/30/2002 11:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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>a lengthy and intriguing discussion..
not only, but also a good example of what happens (eventually) when you take a thread beyond 99 posts.
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#90425
12/30/2002 11:34 PM
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Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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[all kidding aside]
I think, ultimately, that the most appropriately PC historic event will be when the United States has its first Native American president.
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#90426
12/31/2002 12:20 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2 |
alright, already!
Or, if you prefer, "All right, all ready!
Or yet again, as they say in _my_stomping grounds, "Arright, arreddy!"
(East Bronx. Note the pronunciation blurring between "l" and "r".)
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#90427
12/31/2002 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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no, I think that's " awright"... 
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90428
12/31/2002 1:23 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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I think that's "awright"
In many places, perhaps, but in the East Bronx, perhaps not.
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#90429
12/31/2002 1:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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In many places, perhaps, but in the East Bronx, perhaps not.
twoo, sowwy.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#90430
12/31/2002 1:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Indeed, let us get our "awrights" aright.
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#90431
12/31/2002 3:28 AM
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Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Here's a PC post from an intriguing perspective I found in the original 2000 thread, from Brandon, a board contributor we haven't seen much of late:
>Of couse many other languages (eg Spanish, French) have many more male and females<
In my language of choice (American Sign Language), masculine and feminine pronouns and identifiers do not exist as they do in most spoken languages. People and objects are defined and introduced spatially, not "sexually." If it does contribute to a broader acceptance of men-and-women-on-equal-footing, that contribution may be negated by the fact that most description is visually-based and therefore readily malleable to personal bias.
It goes back to the covert issue; words are not necessary for ill will.
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#90432
12/31/2002 5:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
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I believe tsuwm is well aware of this, honey, as I guess are most of his interlocutors.
well, I wondered....! but wasn't entirely clear....Anyway, was glad for a chance to post something about "niggardly" (which is a great word!)....
sorry I misconstrued, tswum!
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#90433
12/31/2002 8:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
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Just for future reference, MG, the chances of tsuwm not having a complete grasp on any word he uses are about the same as Bill Clinton's chances of becoming President of the US again. The real problem is that tsuwm has never been willing to abide by the international law which forbids USns to use irony. So, somoetimes, the rest of us may mistake his breach of this protocol for an actual misunderstanding. I know, 'cos it's happened to me.
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#90434
12/31/2002 8:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
I think to the extent that PC is what it claims to be - just an attempt to be polite - that it's fine. My problem is that it is - in reality - so much more than what it claims to be. It goes beyond, "I believe that my language causes harm and I will attempt to use other words in other ways," to "I think *YOUR* language causes harm and *YOU* should change it! Failure to do so marks you as homophobic or racist at worst and insensitive at best."
It seems clear to me that many who are anti-pc have misanalyzed the problem and have generically claimed that every idea with which they disagree is somehow pc. But this mistaken analysis doesn't mean that pc is non-existent or that it is entirely innocuous. And I have to say that it is very irritating to me that anti-PCers are always doing this precisely because it does detract from the real flaws (as I perceive them).
Method of PC:
PC as it is practiced is an attempt to associate people with beliefs they do not hold, ideas they have not expressed, and actions they have not performed. The crux is that ignorance is considered the ultimate evil in our society and naivete the ultimate display of mental and moral weakness. If I can show that you don't know some little bit of information, then you, of course, are not so well-informed and are therefore ignorant. What you say is therefore perpetuating ignorance. Since I know more than you (you are obviously ignorant), I am *right* and you are *WRONG* and everything you say can be safely ignored. If I am right (and just), then anything I say is justified and anything you say is not.
The irony of this situation is that PC is a left-wing embodiment of many qualities its adherents claim to despise on the right. (Yes, imo, the right has their own version of PC with all of the essential components.)
Aside:
True story. My wife always talks about "orinentals." "Orinental" this and "orinental" that. I would not presume to correct her on this point, but I did finally say to her, "Honey, I'm not being critical and I'm not asking you to change your speech, but did you know that many people say that applying the word 'oriental' to people is racist or at least insensitive." (A slight diversion to explain the meaning of those terms.) She immediately responds "Who say dat? Dat stupid!" In fact, I know many, many asians and they all but one use the term 'oriental' to describe people. The one fellow, however, who does not is rabidly opposed to this usage. Extremely vocal about it. (OTOH, I know another fellow is equally insistent that he be refered to as an oriental and nothing else. This game is called "Kobayashi Maru.") I think that in the main the guys who are offended by this are the ones who were told that they ought to be offended.
Similar kinda thing with the the terms "African American" vs "black." I know lots of blacks who refer to simply "blacks" or "black americans" or "black women" and then 10 minutes later will make a big show of refering to "African Americans" if it involves correcting the use by someone who is white. "Blacks" is a convenient shortening that blacks themselves use.
My least favorite of these shibboleths is "people of color" to refer to non-whites - as if white were not a color. This is an attempt to define a group of people without reference to the group to which they are defined. "See, we need to think of ourselves in our own right and not as how we are related to that 'other group'." This is an archetype of linguistic dishonestly.
My intent:
I guess my main purpose is the rehabilitation of honest ignorance, and the elimination of the pretense that one is 'merely being polite' or 'merely educating' by correcting the diction and grammar of other people (usually done in the most condescending and nasty way imaginable since it's not 'really' about 'educating' people as they call it, but about scoring points).
I suppose after all of this it is unnecessary for me to state my ignorant and insensitive opinion on the changing of works of art. I don't have a problem with an artist changing his own works for whatever reason she wants to do it. I do not think it is good or wise or even particularly 'sensitive' to go back and scrub the classics so they conform to modern sensibilities. Mark Twain is fine the way he is written. At the very least, those who recast his works should be honest enough to say that their own 'version' is a derivation of the original work. While they're at it, they need to go look up those paintings of little boys by Picasso in the National Gallery and paint some clothes on them. Pederastic bastard shouldn't have done that in the first place and we need to ensure an environment where "our" children feel safe, to boot.
k
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#90435
12/31/2002 8:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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There would be no need for Political Correctness if we all tried to be gentlemen, as defined by Cardinal Newman long ago. The most important characteristic of a gentleman is that he genuinely tries to avoid needlessly inflicting pain. Below is URL to the essay by Cardinal Newman: http://65.107.211.206/vn/victor10.html
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#90436
12/31/2002 9:43 PM
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Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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intra-ethnic PC
Your pointing out the use of "oriental' within the Asian community, gleaned from first-hand experience, FF, is an interesting illustration that, in some ways, folks are applying the PC factor to certain situations or sayings because it is now "the thing to do." Take the recent flap over Antonio Banderas appearing as Pancho Villa in his new movie. Many Mexicans say they are outraged that a continental Spaniard was allowed to depict a Mexican historical figure on screen, that there are plenty of Mexican actors who could have done the part. But he's an actor, this is theatre...actors create an amalgam of characters of many backgrounds...this is their art. If appropriate ethnic casting is now supposed to be the rule, then Martin Sheen couldn't have done Robert E. Lee in Gettysburg, Sir Laurence Olivier couldn't have done many of his characters, including the Jewish Nazi-hunter in The Boys From Brazil. This is the kind of stuff that draws a cynical eye of ridicule to PC, and overshadows some of its initial and appropriate intentions, intentions now obscured in a rush to judge, a rush to point, a rush to complain, it now seems in many cases, just for the sake of complaining.
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#90437
12/31/2002 10:31 PM
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Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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They ALL have been native Americans. It's even required in the Constitution.
The use of the term Native American to decribe those who are descended from root stocks that were indiginous to North and Central America prior to 1492 is, to me, anathema. There's not a damned thing wrong with calling those people Indians or Amerinds or aboriginal Americans, but reserving to them the phrase native American takes away MY birthright.
Along those lines, I learned years ago that calling an Amerind and apple is akin to use of the n-word. It refers pejoratively to an aboriginal American descendant who is considered by his or her relatives to be red on the outside but white on the inside.
TEd
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#90438
12/31/2002 11:01 PM
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Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Native American
Yes, TEd, I too, am not completely comfortable with the term Native American, and, as you may have seen over my many postings on this board, I usually use Amerindian or Aboriginal American, because I think anyone who is born in the USA is a Native American. However, for the observation I made, I thought Native American was the best choice for clarity's sake on an international board. But the nomenclature wasn't the point of that particular post. I still think it will be poetic justice when we have our first descendent from the original inhabitants of these states as president (choose any descriptive you want).
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#90439
12/31/2002 11:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
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>There's not a damned thing wrong with calling those people Indians
Actually there is - they're not. Last time I looked, India was a hell of a long way from The Americas, historic misappellations notwithstanding.
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#90440
01/01/2003 12:29 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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#90441
01/01/2003 12:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>There's not a damned thing wrong with calling those people Indians<
Dear sjm: now that I think of it, I am a bit surprised that the colonists called the "red men"
Indians, since it had been known over a hundred years that the name was inappropriate.
I just checked Governor Bradford's Journal, and he called them "Indeans". But what
should he have called them? There were many tribes with different names, and they
probably used no collective term. They were "indigenes"
indigene
n.
5Fr indig\ne < L indigena < OL indu (L in), in + gignere, to be born: see GENUS6 a native or indigenous person, animal, or plant Also in4di[gen 73j!n8
Let's hear it for the Indigenes!
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#90442
01/01/2003 1:31 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Wondering Wind:
Here's the clause:
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
I have always assumed that it means the fourteen years immediately preceding the person's accession to the Presidency.
Residency is probably construed to mean having a place to call home. The last President who spent much time outside the country prior to being elected would have been Ike, who spent several years outside the US between 1942 and 1945, but I'm sure he maintained a residence and presumably voter registration during the period. He owned a big old farm outside Gettysburg, which I think he'd had for twenty or thirty years. I would find it very hard to believe that military service outside the US would constitute a break in the continuous 14-year period. If that were the case, a President could ruin the prospect of potential military rivals by shipping them off to Timbuktu.
Hoover spent quite a bit of time outside the US prior to his presidency, but I'd be willing to bet he maintained a residence. In his case, though, the absence from the country would have been on his own volition, so he would have come closer to having a problem than would have Eisenhower.
Curiously, had Clinton resided outside the US during the period prior to 1992, he might have come under some scrutiny with respect to this clause. So far as I know Bill and Hillary never owned a house until they bought Carpetbagger-on-Hudson shortly before the 2000 election so if he'd resided overseas there might have been a challenge.
Note also that Madeline Albright, while Secretary of State, was not technically close in line to the Presidency after the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate. Since she was not a natural-born citizen she was ineligible to succeed to the Presidency, so hmmm I guess the Secretary of the Treasury would have been third. The pecking order inside the Cabinet goes by the holder of the oldest Cabinet post, and SecState was the first one created by the Congress in 1789. Either Treasury or Justice would have been next, and without looking it up I'd guess Treasury.
TEd, who has spent a good deal of time wondering about and researching the Constitution
TEd
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#90443
01/01/2003 2:50 AM
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 555
addict
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addict
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I arrived late on this thread and didn't post, since most of what I felt was being mirrored by many others. Two recent posts, make me want to add my two cents. Dear wwh, Thanks very much for that Newman insight. Something that is worthy of a New Year resolution for me for sure! As for the other, I think that in the main the guys who are offended by this are the ones who were told that they ought to be offended.
Dear FF, That seems like an imperialistic stance. Cant remember who quoted it before, but I think it was Jackie who wrote, 'history is usually recorded by the victors, not by the vanquished'. That statement is very telling. For every person, who feels offended by a particular expression, there is usually valid historical evidence of oppression and or discrimination, most of which is relatively recent and is thus not so easy to forget and move on from. History is not abstract and disembodied; it is made by and of people and so most times, there will also be some direct family record of some such event that serves to further entrench the feeling. Also, even if a lot of things have changed in the last fifty years of the past century, many of the 'reasons', why the problems started in the first place still exist. The mirror of our brave new world still faithfully reflects the colour of one's skin, and cannot change the culture of a people, cannot change the religious sects that one is born into. These very causal factors for much conflict, serve as living memories and insenstive linguistic usage, effortlessly flips open the Pandora. Many wounds relating to race and culture are still raw. In the time frame of history, most of the demands on PC consciousness, are with reference to relatively recent happenings. All it takes, is for us to live and let live, to let cultures and civilisations co-exist and to assimilate as much as we can and not be dismissive of the ones that we dont agree with. Having said that, there is certainly a strong and valid case to be made for the denouncement of eruptions of righteous indignation based on supposed and imagined insult.
Here's to a Great New Year then, and may more kindness, humanity and peace prevail.
Edit: Dear Mr. Eliot, please accept my apologies; returned in a rush to reassure, before I got any foot stamping disapproval for the title, that the only reason it isn't duly registered is because I still haven't figured out how to do the 'circley R' thing.
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#90444
01/01/2003 12:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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the 'circley R' thing.
Mac - OPTION-r
Win - ALT-0174
Note: The 0174 must be entered on the keypad on the right, not the top row numbers.
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#90445
01/01/2003 3:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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1074 0174R ® ® Hey it works! No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, ®
at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; Thomas Jefferson might well have left off the extra comma. But then some folks like me would read this as a separate condition, meaning that only citizens of the United States who were alive at the time of the Adoption of the Constitution would be eligible to become President. You all think this sufficient justification to Null and Void the Clinton years?
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#90446
01/01/2003 5:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,819 |
In reply to:
PC as it is practiced is an attempt to associate people with beliefs they do not hold, ideas they have not expressed, and actions they have not performed.
I agree with FF here, and it is often done as a pretext for an attack in order to disguise it as a morally-justified retaliation.
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#90447
01/01/2003 5:12 PM
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Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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You all think this sufficient justification to Null and Void the Clinton years?You mean Arkansans aren't part of the United States!?  I always thought that was a Mississippi/Arkansas "thing" they had goin'...you mean Alabama is in on it, too!
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#90448
01/02/2003 12:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
As for the other, I think that in the main the guys who are offended by this are the ones who were told that they ought to be offended.
Dear FF, That seems like an imperialistic stance
As I said previously, PC as it is practiced is an attempt to associate people with beliefs they do not hold, ideas they have not expressed, and actions they have not performed.
Also, even if a lot of things have changed in the last fifty years of the past century, many of the 'reasons', why the problems started in the first place still exist.
I don't understand why 'reasons' is quoted above. Entirely agreed. But - in the context of this discussion - this sounds a lot like the starting point of the implicit argument that is often made "People who agree with us are morally correct and those who disagree are morally incorrect and therefore whatever we say must be true and whatever demands we make are justified and correct."
All it takes, is for us to live and let live, to let cultures and civilisations co-exist and to assimilate as much as we can and not be dismissive of the ones that we dont agree with.
That's not really 'all' now is it? Not one thing in my OP was in conflict with this statement and so there must be something else that is a requirement, elsewise my statement would not have been associated with imperialism.
Happy New Year,
k
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#90449
01/02/2003 2:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Summoned before the Spanish Inquisition in 1541, the painter El Greco was interrogated not because of suspected heresy, witchcraft, or a lapse of faith. The Church officials were offended by the way he painted the wings of angels.
According to the inquisitors, El Greco's angels were in opposition to canon law and the Holy Scriptures: They weren't painted so that the wings represented real angel wings at all. However, unlike other victims of the Inquisition, El Greco was able to successfully defend his actions. He presented his theories of form, purity, and grace so convincingly that the judges acquitted him and set him free. Perhaps under their black cowls, the representatives of the Church harbored an appreciation of art--as long as it wasn't too openly paganistic.
--World of the Odd and Awesome, Charles Berlitz
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