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Pooh-Bah
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When someone asked recently about a latin babel fish, I passed on some links to Latin translation sites that were provided by my good friend who got a first in Classics. I cannot remember which Fred they were in, but they're still hanging about there. if you don't mind searching.
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Ah, but the faith in mankind, Max dear. You cannot truly serve mankind if you do not have faith in it. Faith that it is ultimately good, faith that it will stand behind you in your duty and faith that, it too, will defend you in your time of need.
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Ah, but the faith in mankind, Max dear. You cannot truly serve mankind if you do not have faith in it.
True, but I have met atheists who reject outright the concept of "faith", even of "belief" - one man I discussed this with got quite heated in his assertion that he did not "believe" anything.
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his assertion that he did not "believe" anything
Max, am I assuming correctly that you and this gentleman meant religious faith? Faith/belief can refer to other things. Some people have faith in the essential goodness of human beings. Some believe that we are inherently "bad".
I have never seen a single one of you other linguaphiles
(take note, shanks!), but I have faith that you are real!
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Max, am I assuming correctly that you and this gentleman meant religious faith?Although the discussion had started that way, it had broadened to include a definition of "faith" and "belief" - he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance. It was a somewhat simplistic extension of the ideas expressed on this page: http://hometown.aol.com/dandclxvi/belief.htm
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Pooh-Bah
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>He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance
This seems to be an untenable proposition. Even without looking at the world of religious faith we have to make some decisions on the basis of evidence and probability. These tend to work well for large numbers but not for individual cases.
I've been working on medico-legal cases recently and expert witnesses are often asked to predict the likely future outcome of a disease in an individual. Although there is scientific evidence on the course of diseases it is constantly being updated and sometimes disagrees with the point of view that went before (BSE/CJD/HIV all spring to mind). All a clinician can be expected to do is to keep reasonably up to date with current evidence, combine it with their own clinical experience and make a clinical judgement. When asked to predict the course of a disease in an individual they are only able to express their own belief in what will happen. A doctor doesn't know if a patients arthritis will be worse in ten years time they can only say what they believe to be the most likely outcome. The court is then presented with various opinions and is left with a decision of which expert to believe.
Perhaps this is what has stoked public anger and litigiousness. Once it was possible for people to believe in the clergy, clerics, doctors, lawyers, engineers. These days the press love to focus on any instance of a professional being caught out - a priest in a dubious relationship, a doctors who makes a mistake, an engineer who does not stick to safety procedures.
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He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance
This seems to be an untenable proposition. Even without looking at the world of religious faith we have to make some decisions on the basis of evidence and probability.
My sentiments exactly. Just because words like belief and faith are most widely used in a religious, or at least spiritual, context, does not mean that they are limited to such uses. I believe that Arsenal is capable of winning the English Premier League, and I try to have faith that they will.
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#8788
10/29/2000 10:49 AM
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>he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He [bold] believed [/bold] that there is only knowledge or ignorance.< Max, I am sure this is a mere slip of the keyboard, but do not the words of your above post contain a huge internal inconsistency? 
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#8789
10/29/2000 12:59 PM
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Bridget--nice catch, my dear! Kudos.
Max--Well, this fellow can be admired for sticking to his
principles right or wrong, but I must say there are some
holes in his logic, acc'g to what he put in the site you
gave. For ex., if God wants witches to die, it doesn't
follow that He wants a certain person to murder them!
But--and this made me absolutely hysterical, half wanting to
shriek with laughter at the incredible timing of this find, and the other half wanting to groan over this gentleman's
black-or-white only outlook--(EEP! shanks, this is definitely one of those convoluted sentences I posted about!). Sorry--I'll start anew.
I went to the site, read it, then clicked "BACK" at the bottom of his page, and here is what I found:
"Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle.
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he said that he did not "believe" anything - he knew things. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He [bold] believed [/bold] that there is only knowledge or ignorance
I noticeed the inconsistency as I typed it, but to me the opinion he stated was a belief. To him, he "knew" there was only knowledge or ignorance, but I reported his viewpoint from my own perspective, partly because find it difficult to grasp that someone can have no belief in anything. I should have been more careful, and written something like, "in his opinion", but even though I noticed the error when I read the first reply, I decided to let the inconsistency go uncorrected because it summed up my opinion of his viewpoint.
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I decided to let the inconsistency go uncorrected
Thought as much, Sweetie!
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Rhubarb Commando inquires: "...Gorillas were referred to, familiarly, as 'puggies.' Any ideas where this word could have come from?"
Chimpanzees, orangutan and gorillas are all members of the family Pongidae. One suspects a derivation from this Latin zoological name to the British colloguialism "puggies."
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Fishy inquires: "Does this mean that you really are as one with your nom de plume?"
To which the Reverend Doctor responds: "Yup."
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Helen asks: "please, could you provide a link to good translation software, or a translation for those of use who have forgotten the little Latin we learned."
And the Vicar responds: "May Almighty God be merciful to you and, forgiving you your sins, bring you to everlasting life."
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. To him, "belief" carried the idea of "faith" inside it, and he despised the idea. He believed that there is only knowledge or ignorance.<
..internal inconsistency?
Hi Bridget,
To me, there is absolutely no inconsistency in this critique, on the contrary, it is a poignant way of showing that the "black-and-white" concept is untenable. It sprang to my attention because yesterday I discussed with an old friend who now intends to rewrite the history of his region, claiming that all previous history had been "colored" by the views of historians, and he wanted to reveal "the truth"..
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Ahh!, the closing line of Confession!
Bless me, father it has been any number of years since my last confession! (or is the closing line, "Go in peace, and sin no more"?)
I still "keep the faith", but no longer have the belief that the Roman catholic church is the only pathway to God.
One of the local churches still offers services in latin, but, like the joke in an other string, when i do get to church, I tend to one of the local Quaker services..
and so i weave together several threads....
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I went to the site, read it, then clicked "BACK" at the bottom of his page, and here is what I found:
"Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle."
As much as I would love to attribute this discovery to the mysterious ways of The Divinity, Jackie, I am afraid the explanation is very simple. I found that site by doing a search at google.com for the phrase "Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle." I had even emailed the author of the site to see if he knew who said it first, but unfortunately he had just seen it as a grafitto some thirty years ago and liked it. The author is not the gentleman I spoke with, but certainly does seem to share very similar views. I felt as you did about some of his extrapolations - the "killing witches" thing in particular.
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Just to do a follow-up on my initial post in this thread…
Mary Lamberton, Research Correspondent at National Georgraphic Society could find no mention of Mogambo on any of their maps. She also checked with the National Imagery and Mapping Agency’s database of foreign names and came out empty.
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...and just to follow up on tsuwm's initial post if I may be so bold, and to confound the issue further, I quote from http://www.ogd.org/rapport/gb/RP11_7_KENYA.html: The East African Standard, one of Kenya's largest newspapers, said that this hashish had been manufactured in a 500 ha farm in the Mogambo region of SomaliaFrom memory I found two or three other similar references - I think at least one was an aid organization website.
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Ah, here's one more: http://vwww.vita.org/disaster/sitrep/97b/0094.htmlfrom Volunteers in Technical Assistance, Dec 1997 report re Somalia floods. Also found references to Mogambo, Somalia in a number of - unfortunately broken - links to the Journal of Humanitarian Assistance.
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I once wrote a rather long post (on another board) about the difference, as I see it, between 'belief that' and 'belief in', with loads of swipes at pomo relativism along the way. If you're interested, it has been archived at: http://www.unfacts.f2s.com/archive/shanks/POMO.htmlcheer the sunshine (doing my bit for Plato) warrior
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#8802
10/31/2000 12:36 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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and gorillas are all members of the family Pongidae
Many thanks, Pa,
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claiming that all previous history had been "colored" by the views of historians, and he wanted to reveal "the truth"..In a rare moment of reponsibility, I have started another thread on this topic, in Miscellany, under the title "The poverty of History" apologies to K.Marx 
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I found that site by doing a search at google.com for the phrase "Man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle."My hero! I should be following this up in greater earnest myself, of course, but this goes to the root of whoever first came out with the like a fish needs a bicycle construction. Which is obviously of interest to all present, but myself especially. Of course, there is the possibility that the phrase originated solely as a graffito, and no-one but Bill Posters can be held responsible. A bit like the other vaguely related phrase: as much use as an ash-tray on a motorbike. Now someone will tell me they know who first came out with that phrase, won't they? 
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the difference..between 'belief that' and 'belief in'Thanks for that shanks. I think it is a useful distinction. Though I have to confess to POMOid tendencies myself, as you may notice from time to time! I suppose it could be argued that this subject belongs not only on another thread, but on another Board. Or does it? Using words correctly, defining commonly-acceptable interpretations and occasionally/often living with differences of opinion - aren't these common to AWAD and several strands of Philosophy?
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Thanks for the link Marty. I think I will make it a mini-mission to have Mogambo appear on National Geographic maps - special AWAD contibution to NG so to speak. I'll pass on link and info to them, and niggle them from there on. Cross your fingers.
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>..and just to follow up... if I may be so bold, and to confound the issue further...
marty, this reminds me that I've been wanting to say that I think it's terrific the way everyone has taken to Looking It Up, and posting hot links -- IMHO this is the way the web was meant to be used!
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There are some who would say that all of modern philosophy is about language! So you're not far off there. But I agree that the discussion, as such, seems to have less to do with our ayleur tendencies, and more with generalised intellectualisms...
If you followed the link, you'd find yourself gently nudged towards the F.A.C.T.S board. It's where (when we can haul ourselves out of the gutter) a number of us discuss issues like this. Current hot topic: Why is there something instead of nothing?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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followed the linkThankshanks - helpful link. Does this mean you are a factotum?
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One of our number started this UNofficial FACTS site, that he decided to call UNFACTS. Under his terminology, we are all FACTOIDS!
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a mini-mission to have Mogambo appear on National Geographic maps
Hold your horses, bel! Just occurs to me that Mogambo could be an old name for a region now known by another name. In a similar manner to Ceylon 'becoming' Sri Lanka and Rhodesia, ummm, Zaire isn't it? And what was Yugoslavia now being officially recognised as a bunch of smaller countries.
Both Marty's reference articles are dated 1997 - may this have been the last time when it was politically acceptable to use the old name?
Just an idea.
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fishy
Rhodesia is Zimbabwe. There seem to be a few web sites with Zimbabwe addresses so you could have be on the right track.
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