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Carpal Tunnel
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Without wishing to put the cat among the pigeons, I think there is some merit in establishing that scientific thought isn't the be-all and end-all.
I agree very strongly that such thinking shouldn't be used as a means of promoting any political agenda, let alone one that could be seen as favouring ignorance and laziness. But sometimes it's important to realise that theories are just theories, however well they have worked up to now, and that science doesn't have all the answers.
This seems to me be to be at the heart of the problem - extremism. One extreme is the deified scientist/technocrat (a laAsimov's Foundation series). The other is the ludicrous POMO who seems to suggest that there can be no such thing as objectivity, without considering the paradoxical nature of such a statement.
I admire the commitment to the pursuit of knowledge that most scientists display, but I would never assume that an inclination toward more structured, logical thinking processes somehow confers immunity from human foibles like bias, selfishness and susceptibility to external influences. Rather than treat scientists as almost infallible demi-gods, or dismiss them as proponents of some bizarre elitist conspiracy, why not simply applaud the contribution that science and its practitioners have made to our society and recognise that others have equally valid contributions to make? This seems especially true since the very objectivity that science values can cause problems. The ability to work on issues in a moral vacuum has seen scientists produce monstrous weapons of mass destruction, viewing them as simply exercises in applied science. A quote from the chaotician in Jurassic Park stuck with me in connection with the attitude apparently shared by many scientists: "You were so concerned with whether you could, you didn't think whether you should"
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enthusiast
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Thought I'd steer clear of this heavy meta-science argument and respond instead to wseiber's:
Contrary to popular belief (at the base of many intelligence tests etc), there is no uniquely defined, "correct" way of continuing any finite number sequence.
My 9yo daughter would certainly concur with you there, wseiber. Here's a recent homework question she was given.
[Q1 and Q2 have pictures of shapes - you'll have to use your imagination]
Complete the following patterns:
1) circle, triangle, square, circle, triangle,...
(Her answer of square, circle, triangle,... was marked correct)
2) tall block, medium block, short block, tall block,...
(Her answer - medium block, short block etc - again correct)
3) 11, 21, 31,...
(Her answer? She spotted the similarity to Q1 and Q2 and gave what was to me a perfectly plausible and natural answer, i.e. 11,21,31,11,21,31,11,... Teacher, of course, marked it incorrect, and probably still has no idea where it came from, or how the questions led her "astray". I got quite a chuckle out of it - I just hope my daughter hasn't been assessed as innumerate!)
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Science:
When I went to school (girls only) we were all encouraged to be scientists. It was the way the world was going, where new challenges lay, we had the power to improve the world. I'm not sure my own children will see it the same way, although I already see in them an orientation towards science subjects.
Academic scientists (in this country, at least) are paid apallingly badly. A friend was worried when her husband (a father of three) decided to change direction and pursue an academic career three years ago. Even with her contribition to the household they would probably have to move out of their modest home in the over-priced South East of England - at least to get him through the early years of an academic career (starting pay £14,000 at the time).
http://www.ex.ac.uk/EAD/personnel/academic_scales_2000.htm
It's hard to find good science teachers, relatively easy to get places at university with lower grades because most intelligent children understand the nature of the world today. They all want to be ..... lawyers!
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old hand
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Without wishing to put the cat among the pigeonsSorry, it was me who put it there in the first place. And remember, cats like eating fish, too  . Of course, bugbears also need to be deconstructed. To me, it is not devious to study and describe the place of science in society (which is the declared agenda of those people), on the contrary. What makes it depressing is the inept way they go about the business, and the prejudices they take as guidelines.
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#8633
10/31/2000 10:49 AM
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old hand
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Lol!
Actually I agree quite a lot with what Shona and you have to say.
What disappoints me about public attitudes towards science in the UK is that we equate science with scientists in a simplistic (soap opera influenced?) way, in which every anecdote, for good or ill, is then deemed to be evidence that science is 'this' or 'that'. Of course scientists are human. And guess what, they studied science, not ethics. Why should we expect greater moral perspicacity of them than we do of, say, tabloid editors? Ah well...
I'm surprised nobody picked me up on the Aristotle-philosophy mix-up that I hinted at. Particularly since that was probably the only part of my post to deal with language. Any ideas?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#8634
10/31/2000 11:27 AM
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addict
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addict
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<bugbears also need to be deconstructed>
… or debugged, perhaps?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Oy, we're back to newts again. Particularly good at debugging  .
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
I'm surprised nobody picked me up on the Aristotle-philosophy mix-up that I hinted at. Particularly since that was probably the only part of my post to deal with language. Any ideas?
Do you mean about Aristotle's Metaphysics just being the book that came after the one on physics rather than describing a subject that was beyond physics (the Greek word meta could mean after or beyond)?
Bingley
Bingley
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Pooh-Bah
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nobody picked me up on the Aristotle-philosophy mix-upNo, but what I would have picked up on, had I been looking at the time, was your reference to dead white european males. What I cannot decide is which punctuation mark you omitted between "dead" and "white" - should it be a hyphen or a comma?
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old hand
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In the new POMO universe, commas are outdated symbols of an imperialistic, oppressive past.
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#8639
11/01/2000 10:04 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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we're back to newts again. Particularly good at debuggingOnly as long as they're very fresh. Who wants yesterday's newts? 
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#8640
11/01/2000 10:09 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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cats like eating fish, too'Tis true - though a big enough fish could eat a cat, right enough What makes it depressing is the inept way they go about the businessYes, I think we're all agreed on this one. Such an appalling lack of imagination!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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You-all, this is my 1000th post. I had to put it here!
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Carpal Tunnel
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WOW! Congratulations, Jackie - what happens if you reach the next graduation point before Anu has a chance to give it a designation? I'll wager he never expected anybody to get to 1000 posts so soon.
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Carpal Tunnel
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max, haven't you been paying attention? the next milestone is 1100!
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Carpal Tunnel
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max, haven't you been paying attention? the next milestone is 1100!tsuwm, haven't you been paying attention? I didn't ask about when the next graduation point was, but what it was called. I was of course, joking, but suggested that Anu may not have thought up a designation for the hext graduation point - not expecting anyone to average more than 3 posts a day, seven days a week, since joining the board shortly after its inception. I just thought it was mildly amusing to speculate about the possibility that Jackie's enthusiasm could outpace Anu's hierarchy.
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Carpal Tunnel
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the hext graduation point...You callin' ma niece a witch?!? You better watch out or you'll be all washed up DOWN there
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thank you, sweet Aunt mav!
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
the hext graduation point...
You callin' ma niece a witch?!? You better watch out or you'll be all washed up DOWN there
Honi soit qui mal y pense! I was merely suggesting that Jackie is magick!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Merci, sweet Max. {Wafting magick dust): may you and yours
stay healthy and happy.
My, this board sure has given me a variety of identities!
Though my family has no trouble recognizing the bad witch.
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old hand
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Do you mean about Aristotle's Metaphysics just being the book that came after the one on physics rather than describing a subject that was beyond physics (the Greek word meta could mean after or beyond)?
Whoops! Didn't spot this earlier. Yes indeed. I love the notion that this fanciful subject - 'metaphysics' - has a name that arose out of a misunderstanding.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Max is an addict, Max is an addict!
Cheers all 'round!
Also--to bring the topic over from, I think, info. and announcements: I'm inclined to think that 20 posts would make one no longer a stranger, but I also seriously doubt that Anu is going to change his requirements. Confess my curiosity would like to be satisfied by learning the scheme/rhyme/reason for the title changes!
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#8651
11/18/2000 10:38 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Commiserations Max.
I think that this may be the only place on earth where people are congratulated on becoming addicts. I'll send a prescription shortly. In the meantime, I recommend plenty of sunscreen so you can get out more in that lovely summer sunshine. I also hear the Betty Ford clinic is very good, they have paper and pens to save you going cold turkey. Tsuwm is not allowed anywhere near as he has access to some very dangerous Internet sites. Shanks is wanted by Interpol and is expected to serve a very long sentence. After a while you will reach a half way house where you will be allowed to use only sign language (lessons by Brandon) so you'll never need to main line another OED (curiously spell-checked as Oedipal).
Just got to dash to another Internet Cafe, I like to keep on the move.
OJ
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#8652
11/18/2000 11:12 PM
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old hand
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Shanks is wanted by Interpol and is expected to serve a very long sentence.
A hit
A very palpable hit!
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#8653
11/18/2000 11:16 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
In the meantime, I recommend plenty of sunscreen so you can get out more in that lovely summer sunshine.
Hah! As I write this, Hawke's Bay, the sunshine province of NZ, is being whipped by frigid southerly winds, whose icy fingers are gleefully flicking gelid drops in our faces. Still, when summer does come, it will be nice to know that 8 minutes outside unprotected should almost guarantee skin trouble, perhaps enabling one to join the club of NZers (one a day) who die from melanoma.
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#8654
11/18/2000 11:31 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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If anyone is good at sums. They might like to look at the time zones included in the posts made over the last few minutes. There was another from Tsuwm in the red-brick thread.
Interesting to get the UK, New Zealand and the USA all on line at the same time. Tsuwm is still in Saturday evening, Shanks and I are in the early hours of Sunday morning and Max is thinking about his Sunday lunch! It wasn't all that long ago when it wasn't possible to speak to someone in another continent without a long gap between words - amazing!
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#8655
11/18/2000 11:43 PM
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old hand
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Is it Sunday morning already? I must remember to keep looking at my watch. (Yes, you're right - it's about 0045 GMT.)
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#8656
11/19/2000 12:00 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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For anybody running Win9.x (maybe ME, no guarantees)- sorry Anna, you could go here: http://www.driveway.com/share?sid=9f78513f.96073&name=useful+stuff and download a freeware app. called clockrack.exe It sits at the top of your screen, hidden until clicked on, and will display the time in up to ten different timezones at once. I currently have mine set to LA, London, NY, Tokyo, Auckland, and Melbourne. It takes all the guess work out of determining who's up past their bedtime!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thanks, Max! However, I've got a dozen analog clocks up on my wall, just like my good old days in the newsroom  ... lends atmosphere, donchaknow! Err.... Mr Mac (my pet name for the diesel-powered one who connects me to y'all) and I still haven't figured out those half- and quarter-hour time zones, though 
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#8658
11/27/2000 10:15 AM
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old hand
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Just thought I'd mark the start of yet another addiction. So let's see now - women , alcohol, nictoine, caffeine, shopping, chocolate, cannabis( ), words - any I've left out?
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Carpal Tunnel
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any I've left out? Computers! A certain beef fry. Learning--anything. Philosophy/philosophizing. You mentioned wine (sort of) and women---no song?
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old hand
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You mentioned wine (sort of) and women---no song?
Ah karaoke! Of course. (Actually, too bad a singer to ever attempt anything like that without lots of women and even more wine!)
cheer
the sunshine ("I will survive") warrior
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veteran
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the sunshine ("I will survive") warriorI think Rhub will join you in his high heels for that one, shanks! - have you not seen Priscilla, Queen of the Desert ? Congratulations on becoming a totally lost cause mon chou. You left me trailing in the dust!
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Since "I will survive" appears to be a drunk female (Lambrini anyone? Yuk those ads...)/gay favourite, I thought it would show off my liberal/softer side... Christmas dos coming up - must be at least approachable by the opposite sex!
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Carpal Tunnel
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>So let's see now - women , alcohol, nictoine, caffeine, shopping, chocolate, cannabis(), words - any I've left out?
When I was in Ireland, I learned quite quickly that a free beer was forthcoming from the bartender when I told him that Irish coffee had all four essential food groups in it -- fat, caffeine, sugar, and alcohol.
TEd
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Xara is about to be graduated. Stand by, all hands, to cheer and generally misbehave.
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member
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Dearest Father I believe you keep closer tabs on me than I keep on myself. If you hadn't said anything I might have missed it. Just for you I'll place my 100th post here. .o0(remember way back when you shared with everyone that I was "two posts away from emerging from [my] chrysalis" and becoming a newbie. why, father, i do believe you're watching over me )
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member
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Hey look, it worked! Drinks all around! I've got liquor and tea. I'll even mix them if ya like!
somehow i have decided that for me the numbering system must be all mixed up and my graudation comes 2 posts later than normal. thus, when i graduate on time it amazes me!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Congratulations, xara - member is a more gender-neutral, and hence apt, appellation for you than journeyman. There should be another promotion to celebrate soon too - Jazzoctopus will be an enthusiast in about ten more posts.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I do believe TEd Remington was just promoted from member to enthusiast. Let Te Deum laudamus be sung in chapter and chapel.
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