#86609
11/11/2002 3:02 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Some time ago we had the question of the origin of the words fromage (Fr.) and formaggio (It.). I stumbled across this dictionary http://www.geocities.com/etymonline/ which gives us the Midlle Latin formaticum in its entry for cheese.
|
|
|
#86610
11/11/2002 4:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Maitre corbeau sur un arbre perché Tenait en son bec un fromage...... Etymology: the word cheese derives from the Latin "caseus", meaning a wicker basket in which the cheese was left to drain. The Greek equivalent, "formos", has given us Fromage, the French word for cheese. http://www.france.net.nz/gastronomy/food/cheese.htm
|
|
|
#86611
11/11/2002 4:57 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Dites "fromage"
hehehe... I just now got it.
|
|
|
#86612
11/11/2002 5:28 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Did you get your picture taken?
|
|
|
#86613
11/11/2002 6:12 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
Dites "fromage" hehehe... I just now got it. D'Oh! Me too.  I thought notre RdPdT was making an arcane joke, comparing formaticum/fromage to shibboleth/sibboleth - I guess my mind's just too highly trained. thanks Douglas
|
|
|
#86614
11/11/2002 7:07 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I saw that same formos one, wondered why they used an f and discounted it for some other reason. I'll look formos (or phormos) up in my Greek dictionary when I get home. No reason the Latin couldn't have come from the Greek but words of that sort didn't normally change gender in the process. The geocities site traces cheese back through Latin to I.E. base *kwat- "to ferment, become sour." AHD doesn't list kwat- in its list of IE roots.
|
|
|
#86615
11/11/2002 9:15 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I guess my mind's just too highly trained. thanks Douglas
Lonely at the "top," ain't it... (hey, how'd you get your letters to go small without HTML? Did you intentionally not close a mark-up tag?)
|
|
|
#86616
11/11/2002 10:37 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
The letters all look the same size to me.
|
|
|
#86617
11/11/2002 10:58 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
My B&M AHD has kwath- as a root with the meaning to ferment, be sour, but has only kvass in its list of modern descendants.
|
|
|
#86618
11/12/2002 6:14 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315 |
It sounds so strange to me, all these explainations.
Since I feel the strong relationship between formaggio and forma ( shape, or even the tool to give something a given shape). I mean, the formaggio takes its "forma" from the cointainer it is in.
Also, we say "una forma di parmigiano" = the round (flat cilindrical) piece of parmesan cheese.
|
|
|
#86619
11/12/2002 11:23 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
It sounds so strange
We're so used to the connection between Latin caseus and cheese in so many languages. Just in Romance languages it's queso in Spanish and queijo in Portuguese. We're, I think, mostly used to the French fromage, which has suffered the brutal mutilation of metathesis ripping it untimely from its mother's roots. When we discovered that it was formaggio in Italian, some of us went into a tizzy. This after just recently getting that lovely family tree of Romance languages that show Italian and French to be not that closely related (as Romance languages go).
Of course now some of us (read; me) are now in a frightful tizzy wondering why Latin borrowed a word from Greek AND CHANGED ITS GENDER!.
POST RESEARCH EDIT
AHD shows Latin forma possibly from Greek morphe via Etruscan. My Greek dictionary shows Greek phormos means anything plaited of wicker or reeds, hence a wicker basket, e.g., for carrying corn.
|
|
|
#86620
11/13/2002 2:01 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
We have just learned what the modern Greek for cheese is: turi (u = y). It normally takes the article: "to turi." Plural is "ta turia." I'd write it in Greek if I could, but I can't here, so I won't.
And sjm, your font is smaller in Netscape but regulation-size via other browsers. Go figger.
|
|
|
#86621
11/13/2002 2:16 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
turophile
SYLLABICATION:
tur·o·phile
PRONUNCIATION:
tr-f, tyr-
NOUN:
A lover of cheese.
ETYMOLOGY:
Greek tros, cheese; see teu- in Appendix I + –phile.
|
|
|
#86622
11/13/2002 2:32 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
As I suspected, a missing ypsilon in the transform to the ASCII world. Quite a family we got here looking at the root: http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE531.html
|
|
|
#86623
11/13/2002 5:06 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
µ
And thanks, Dr. Bill, for the look-up.
|
|
|
#86624
11/13/2002 5:37 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
µ
It's a very small Greek cow.
|
|
|
#86625
11/13/2002 5:54 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Remember a long time ago, talking about Welsh Rabbit, that some people have nightmares,etc.
from it. Some people associated it with migraine. Tyrosine, tyramine,etc. etc.
tyrosine
5Gr tyros, cheese (see BUTTER) + 3INE36
n.
a white, crystalline nonessential amino acid, C6H4OHCH2CH(NH2)COOH, formed by the decomposition of proteins, as in the putrefaction of cheese: see AMINO ACID
|
|
|
#86626
11/13/2002 5:58 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
It's a very small Greek cow.
This from a sheep guy.
|
|
|
#86627
11/13/2002 6:11 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Tyramine Foods
Tyramine is a chemical (monoamine) that occurs
naturally in many foods, but particularly in foods and
beverages that have undergone bacterial
decomposition, such as aged cheddar, blue
cheese, and certain red wines. Not everyone who
gets migraines is necessarily sensitive to tyramine.
Rather than simply eliminating all tyramine foods at
once, experiment to see if certain foods are more
problematic than others.
|
|
|
#86628
11/15/2002 3:37 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
In reply to:
the modern Greek for cheese is: turi (u = y). It normally takes the article: "to turi." Plural is "ta turia."
While the ancient Greek was turos, and was masculine. For other cheese words (mainly compounds of turos) see this list from the reverse look up in the Perseus edition of Liddell and Scott:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?T26124572
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
#86629
11/15/2002 2:26 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Bingley: Is the moon made out of chlôrotura ?
|
|
|
#86630
11/18/2002 1:03 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
No, but is often sung about with coloratura.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,915
Posts230,288
Members9,208
| |
Most Online4,606
Sep 17th, 2025
|
|
|
|
