#84633
10/25/2002 2:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
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Speaking of the envelopes, does anyone know where "pushing the envelope" comes from?
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#84634
10/25/2002 2:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I was thinking of the same question, hat. I could be way off base  here, but I think it's a flying term, especially from high speed fighter pilots, talking about getting to the front end of the envelope of air that is created when one approaches Mach 1.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#84635
10/25/2002 2:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Meaning of "push the envelope"
Go to the limits of known performance.
Origin
Originated with aeroplane industry where the limits of a plane's performance
were marked on a two-dimensional graph. The envelope is the area of the graph
that indicates safe usage. In use since the late 1970s.
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#84636
10/25/2002 2:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
i also think it to be a WWII era jet test word.
Jets made there appearance in WWII, and after the war, there were many test about there capabilities. these were plotted, (what speeds could they attain at what altitude, what was engine stall speed, etc., and these paramiters were called the envelope (why?) and when test pilots attempted to do thing the planes hadn't been designed to do, (ie, breaking the sound barrier) they were pushing the envelope. (first used extensively in print in "the right stuff"--authors name, is gone for the moment, same guy who wrote bonfire of the vanities, and electric kool ade something.. tom..??)
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#84637
10/25/2002 2:45 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
well, I was close!  though it doesn't necessarily explain the use of the word, "envelope". Tom Clancy?
formerly known as etaoin...
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#84638
10/25/2002 3:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
no, not tom clancy (leather jackets, aviator glasses) but the one in the natty double breasted white suits.. (from memory of photo's on book jackets.) and yet i still can't remember his name!
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#84639
10/25/2002 3:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
TEd
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#84640
10/25/2002 3:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 7,210 |
thanks, TEd! never read either, but Clancy came to mind, thought I'd offer it...
formerly known as etaoin...
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#84641
10/25/2002 3:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
thanks TEd, that's the guy--
and it works out right for Dr bill's post, first used after WWII, by test pilots, entered the common language in the early 70's, with the publication of the book, The Right Stuff --especially since some chapters of the book first appeared as articles in places like the New Yorker.. so the expression was being used before the book was actually published.
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#84642
10/25/2002 3:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6 |
I was teaching amplitude modulation in class today and the professor who is sitting in my class to teach it next semester came to me at the end and said "I bet this is where pushing the envelope comes from" I said, I will ask. Envelope is the message signal which is off set by a constant value to avoid synchronization at the receiver. If the off-set is too much, the message signal (the envelope) is pushed up too high and gets distorted. Since AM radio comes before WWII, maybe they borrowed the term.
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#84643
10/25/2002 3:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,400 |
might very well be related (Envelope is the message signal which is off set by a constant value to avoid synchronization at the receiver. ) since the information was plotted in a graph format, and looked like a sine wave.. (well, not quite a sine wave, but a amplification wave.. (starting the left, with a steep rise, cresting, coming down a bit, staying almost level for a while, then a steep decline.. (dating myself--but very much like the signal from an old vacuum tube!)))
and since circut boards (integrated circuts) and transistors were just coming into play with the new jets, and -- and there use and performence was being tested at the same time.. the engineers would likely look at the graph and see it similar to the envelope
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#84644
11/01/2002 12:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
The phrase pushing the envelope arises from an East Anglian religious sect called the Broad Barringtons who broke away from Methodism in 1924 after a heated disagreement over the use of minor chords in hymns. Edgar Eldridge, founding member of the Barrington group composed a letter to the local circuit minister, the Rev Bill Norman, outlining their objection to the use of these "decadent" chords. There was an altercation outside the General Stores between Norman and Eldridge on 2nd November 1924 which resulted in Elridge composing a letter. On 3rd November 1924, the Broad Barringtons gather round the local Post Office daring Eldridge to send the letter i.e "push the envelope." This led to the famous pub song "Push The Envelope Edgar" which is still sung by ruddy-faced cider drinkers in the East Anglia area to this day. It also led to the expression in question.
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#84645
11/01/2002 1:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 7,210 |
were they named for Major Barrington? seems a natural.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#84646
11/01/2002 2:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
Hmm, I'd always guessed it was the mathematical/physical meaning...Quinion agrees that it is, and specifically popularized by The Right Stuff. You can look at his whole article here: http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-pus1.htm
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#84647
11/01/2002 2:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Kudos! Kudos!
I think you will fit in very well around here. PLEASE keep posting!
TEd
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#84648
11/01/2002 4:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
I think you will fit in very well around hereAgreed! Welcome aBoard, Maurice Miner. Great bio.
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#84649
11/01/2002 4:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Yes. I think this is the first time I've ever corresponded with an OBE.
Here in the military part of the US bureaucracy OBE means "overcome by events." "You can stop working on that project, it's been OBE-ed." And in this illustration it is pronounced Oh Bee Eed with the last word rhyming with screed.
Brings up a possible new topic of verbing an acronym, come to think on it.
TEd
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#84650
11/02/2002 5:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
This led to the famous pub song "Push The Envelope Edgar" which is still sung by ruddy-faced cider drinkers in the East Anglia area to this day. It also led to the expression in question.
I feel a slight tugging sensation coming from my lower extremities!
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#84651
11/02/2002 6:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2 |
Here in the military part of the US bureaucracy OBE means "overcome by events." "You can stop working on that project, it's been OBE-ed." And in this illustration it is pronounced Oh Bee Eed with the last word rhyming with screed.
...been called a lot o' things in my time, but this is the first time ever in the pluperfect subjunctive...
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#84652
11/03/2002 8:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
were they named for Major Barrington? seems a natural.
Certainly not - we Brits try to avoid the cult of personality, especially in our religious sects (admittedly, not always successfully.)
No: the "Broad" in question is one of the smaller Norfolk Broads - the name given to stretches of water in the flat fenlands of Norfolk, mostly connected to the River Yare and covering many acres of countryside between inland Norwich and Yarmouth, on the coast.
Barrington Broad is one of the most remote and can only be reached by water or by a small, unmetalled road, which is often impassable because of floods. The inhabitants are very inbred, and their Methodism harks back to the days when the Rev. George Beaumont, having been expelled from the Methodist New Connexion, brought his very fiery (and very political!) brand of methodism to Norwich, founding an independent congregation at the Ebenezer Chapel on Ber Street round about 1815. Several branches were formed round the area, including the one at Broad Barrington (confusingly, the name of the village at Barrington Broad.)
Despite a unification of the Methodists during the latter part of the C19, the Barrington lot didn't do much more than pay lip service, so it was quite on the cards that the split described by Maurice should take place.
Musick, you mention an extensive feeling to your lower limbs - have a look at Pooh-Bah's reply to Nanky-Poo in The Mikado !!!!
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#84653
11/03/2002 9:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
hehe. thanks.
I was actually just making a couple of bad musical puns, but I appreciate the lessons, both historical and topographical!
however, one word stuck out for me: unmetalled. what does that mean?
formerly known as etaoin...
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#84654
11/04/2002 11:06 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
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I hope people won't exploit me for my OBE. Just treat me like a regular user, colleagues. I love synonyms just like you.
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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#84655
11/04/2002 11:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
In Welwyn Garden City we have a saying - a biography needn't be selfish - just self-centred.
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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#84656
11/04/2002 11:34 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
Thank you for the kind words of welcome. Will post as often as I can within the constrains of time, work and syciatica.
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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#84657
11/04/2002 11:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
unmetalled
- unsurfaced
- a muddy track without a top layer of stones.
(It is the stones which are the "metal" - not quite sure how they derived that term.)
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#84658
11/04/2002 11:48 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Maurice - I omitted my own words of welcome, having been carried away into providing corroborative detail for your otherwise - um, er - I mean your excellent narrative, by the foul implication by certain Chicago gansters that your story was less than veracious! So let me extend it to you now, having sampled your posts, which are as nutritious as Wheat and, whilst they maintain such quality, need have no fear of being Shredded. 
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#84659
11/04/2002 11:57 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
Whilst I maintain that my reference to the Broad Barringtons was made with the upmost integrity, I would like to stress with some caution that some of the finer details may not of the sharpest accuracy.
Thank you for the welcome. My entries are more like Pop-Tarts if you ask me - so hot, they're cool as you youngters might say. Did you like that? Although, I did appreciate the Shredded Wheat analogy. I like to keep it wholegrain at all times.
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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#84660
11/04/2002 12:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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... caution that some of the finer details may not of the sharpest accuracy.'Twas always the way, dear Maurice - the finest details are frequently the least accurate! [/voice of bitter experience]
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#84661
11/04/2002 1:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
The awful Management Consultants have taken up the expression pushing the envelope lately, along with raising the bar and thinking out of the box.
Maurice, welcome, experts in sacred matters are rare these days. Thinking of which, I note that you were born in Chesterfield - have they straightened up that spire yet?
What's the story behind your sign-off line? I seriously doubt that luncheon meat could be made in any way palatable even with the addition of the equally awful cherryade. Does Welwyn Garden City produce both these items? Wasn't it the first New Town? Leading on to greater things like Milton Keynes. Hmmm...Milton Keynes, luncheon meat and cherryade...well...
Welgar Shredded Wheat was a joy of my youth, I am sure the current product is not as good - is it still made in WGC?
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#84662
11/04/2002 2:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Letchworth, in Hertfordshire, pre-dated WGC by a few years.
However, you could cite Saltaire (Titus Salt, 1856), near Bradford as the earliest example of a town laid out on rational lines, with wide (for the times) streets, green space to hand and facilities such as public baths (for personal ablutions, rather than for swimming) libraries and schools.
Bourneville (Cadbury) and Port Sunlight (Leverhulme) are later C19 examples of the same idea.
To look back to the beginning of the C19, to New Lanark Mills (Owen - c.1810 - cain't remember the exact date) is probably stretching the connection too far - although the idea of employee welfare is common to all of these schemes.
Letchworth and Welwyn Garden certainly took the whole idea up to a new level, though. The major dofference was that this was municipally led, for all citizens no matter where they worked, rather than a company led thing, which owed a fair amount to the perceived need of employers to control their work-force.
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#84663
11/04/2002 2:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
I believe the houses were all owned by The New Town Commission. I guess that has now disappeared?
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#84664
11/04/2002 2:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
I try and avoid bitter experiences where possible but dear friends you will find when pushing the envelope this is not always possible. Methodism has been a very bitter experience for many people but a blessing for others. The same cannot be said for offal however.
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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#84665
11/04/2002 2:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Given Brit Governmental policies of the '80s and '90s, I would assume that the majority are now self-owned. 
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#84666
11/04/2002 3:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
Sometimes I enjoy some luncheon meat in the shadow of that bent spire and reflect on things and it's all rather lovely.
The luncheon meat and cherryade suggestion was just an attempt to spread a little happiness. Not to everyone's taste I'm sure. You may wish to substitute the cherryade with some charming Panda Cola. I mean each to their own after all.
Good to see someone else knows Chesterfield as well as I. Place is changing you know. Lots more three-wheeled buggies you know.....
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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#84667
11/04/2002 4:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Used to be a steelworks at Chesterfield. I guess that's gone too. One time when I visited the coke ovens there they were working on cleaning out the doors and straightening the vertical retainers. To do this one oven either side of the one being worked on had been closed down but on either side of these three all were still working. The heat was immense and the guys working were wearing leather and canvas suits that appeared to stem from Victorian times. Lots of flaps and overlaps. Very interesting. Ah, those were simpler days. Probably didn't seem simple at the time!
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#84668
11/04/2002 5:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
well, here is one of my many educational failings.. Exactly what is the OBE (order of the british empire.. i think) but that really doesn't tell me much..
it is like the congressional medal of honor? that is the highest military award that can be given in US..but its limited (99% sure of this) to military, and given for valor.
i don't think we have a civilian award for valor or anything else (if you do something really good, we expect the media and market place to reward you..if it doesn't immediately, you write a book, or hit the lecture circut)
if it weren't for crosswords, i would be even less familiar with it. you can skip over the detail of how you got yours, (but i don't think a factual account would be bragging) but some one please, remedy my ignorence.
PS i was going to ask by Private message.. but you aren't accepting any. the reason was to hid lack, as much as not to put you on the spot.
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#84669
11/04/2002 5:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Out of Body Experience
Old Blue Eyes
Openbare Bibliotheek Eindhoven
Office By Example
Open Business Engine
Then there's OBE Beef in Oz, which may stand for Organic Beef Exporters, but they won't say.
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#84670
11/04/2002 5:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
He may not answer, since a holder as a holder of an OBE one can OH be circumspect.
TEd
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#84671
11/04/2002 10:02 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636 |
Ol' Boy Englishman?
Welcome, Maurice. I, too, was going to ask if they call you "space cowboy" or "gangster of love", but musick beat me to it. I go out of town for a couple of days.....[mutter...mutter....mutter] Just in case there are some out there that don't understand the reference, it's a song (The Joker) by the Steve Miller Band. That song, in turn, was refering to a previous song by the same band titled "Enter Maurice". [/longwinded whited out explanation]
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#84672
11/05/2002 11:31 AM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 47 |
Why all this focus on my OBE? Lets get back to pushing envelopes shall we. Lets not forget what we're here for.
The story of the baby elephant and the banyan tree contains a very powerful lesson. We must move on from the constrains of elementary assumptions and titles and recognition are but passing flattery. We must concentrate on the more worthy pursuit and exploration of words and their use and the joy we all share in our own exogesis of the language.
Now does anyone dispute the commonly held myth that the word dynamite comes from the root word of dunamis?
Luncheon meat goes down very well with cherryade.
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