#83260
10/10/2002 6:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9 |
I am starting a campaign. For over 30 years, we have struggled, contrived twisted methods of expression, and been in endless, pointless conversations to avoid sexism in our language. I have believed for a long time that the root cause is not sexism. The problem is the lack of a third person, singular, non-gendered, (but not neuter like "it"), personal pronoun in the English language. I've thought about making one up but nothing seems to sound right. He, she, e? Her, him, ? Her, his, ?
The best route may be to borrow from another language. Do you know of such a word(s)? Would you send this to someone who might?
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#83261
10/10/2002 6:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Lander:
Welcome to our group.
Why do we NEED a new word? For many years he and his have been expected to bear the burden of she and her(s); what is so darned precious about PCness that we have to shift this burden elsewhere. He and his should be considered masculine OR neuter, as the context requires. And if the ultra feminists don't like that I say we castrate them.
TEd
TEd
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#83262
10/10/2002 6:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9 |
That's funny! Refer to he as neuter and then offer to castrate the feminists as well...
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#83263
10/10/2002 7:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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If thou'll accept the use of plural pronouns in singular usages thou'll see that we have had thine answer for the last four hundred years or so.
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#83264
10/10/2002 7:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
OH! Drat. I meant that He should refer to both masculine and feminine, according to the context.
TEd
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#83265
10/10/2002 7:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9 |
Perchance, is that thy practice?
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#83266
10/10/2002 7:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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thy practice?
You better believe it.
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#83267
10/10/2002 7:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9 |
So if I were the administrator of a contest that you just won a million dollars from, and I wasn't sure if Faldage was a male or female, and you were standing among a group of people, you would be ok if I said, "Give it to them."
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#83268
10/10/2002 7:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Hey, I wouldn't mind splitting the money with myself.
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#83269
10/10/2002 7:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9 |
Seriously, though. Why don't you think what you recommend is common practice?
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#83270
10/10/2002 7:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
I think it is common practice and anyone who thinks otherwise can take their marbles and go home.
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#83271
10/10/2002 7:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
Uh...I know a personal pronoun that doesn't indicate gender Lander, but I hesitate to reveal it. The south-american tribe that began using it is no longer extant. It seems that, contrary to our popular understanding, sexual interest must be constantly reinforced in order to insure sexual union. These Indians, not having movies and TV, like all of us, needed constant redirectment as to which kind they should pursue, and so when their language failed them, they lost interest in sex and thereby went extinct. Besides I hold the belief that words should not be manufactured, they should be allowed to spring freely and full blown from the collective mind of their originating culture.  Welcome Lander, good luck with your campaign. 
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#83272
10/10/2002 8:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
I think it is common practice and anyone who thinks otherwise can take their marbles and go home.
"A culture of one is just as valuable as a culture of one million" - That *person
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#83273
10/10/2002 8:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
re: Besides I hold the belief that words should not be manufactured, they should be allowed to spring freely and full blown from the collective mind of their originating culture. Milo here is demonstrating how wonderfull both he and english are constitantly inconstistant! or maybe he is claiming to be the voice of the collective mind of our culture... yes, that could be it..but at least he doesn't agrue that he, or his, or him, or any of the other masculine pronouns are also gender neutral-- something that is rather consistantly done, but it never true. in english language culture, he is masculine, and to say it is also neutral is a lie. evenually, we might evolve a new word, (them/they is on its way) but until then, we have a gender bias in english.
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#83274
10/10/2002 8:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Helen:
Every citizen should pay his taxes. Every citizen should pay her taxes. Every citizen should pay his or her taxes.
For many years (probably several centuries) it has been accepted practice to include his and her in the construction of his in the first sentence above. Now you are saying that is a "lie" or "a false statement purposely put forward as the truth: falsehood."
If I [bold]define[/bold] "he" as including "he and she" when the context requires it and "his" as "including his and her(s): when the context requires it, then it is not a lie to infer that he "is" neutral when we define it to be neutral.
Personally i don't care a fig whether we use she and her(s) but I will not use the abomination: "It is the duty of every citizen to pay his or her taxes."
Why do you call it a lie?
TEd, who is not trying to be argumentative, but simply trying to understand
TEd
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#83275
10/10/2002 8:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Every citizen should pay their taxes, which, in turn, buys them the right to be tax-paying citizens.
Singular (or not) it resolves thy need (real or not). From what I've heard, this ain't the first time we've experienced words being revived. They just need a little hot air.
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#83276
10/11/2002 1:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320 |
Maybe I'm just too old and cranky, but I could never use they, their or them as a singular pronoun. And as for the he or she or he/she construction, that can force us into abominations such as: "If he or she doesn't pay his or her taxes, the IRS will come after him or her." PC or no PC, I have to go with the masculine forms continuing to be used when gender is irrelevant, as has been the tradition. I wouldn't care if someone used the feminine pronouns instead. I've noticed that some high-school textbooks have made a point of alternating from chapter to chapter. Maybe a bit labored, but no real harm done.
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#83277
10/11/2002 6:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>Every citizen should pay their taxes, which, in turn, buys them the right to be tax-paying citizens.
I have no problem whatsoever in reading this sentence. It might just be a way of thinking that is different, for those who have problems with this approach. In my case, it is just how I think about people. I find alternatives, such as the use of "he/she" very irritating (it slows down the pace of reading). Alternating uses of “he” and “she” sound highly contrived to me and sometimes make it difficult to follow the thread of what is being said.
I remember once trying say to a woman that I met on a journey that her baby was very beautiful. I suddenly realised that it was difficult in normal conversation to say very much without making an assumption (possibly incorrect) about the sex of the baby or having to ask a question. A question, in itself, might imply that I was having difficulty assessing the gender of the baby. To some, that would be seen as a kind of insult - believe me, I have heard it said. In the end, I got it in the neck because the mother of the baby replied that the baby was not beautiful, he was handsome. I have never been able to think of a baby as handsome, although I'm happy to think that one day her son would be handsome. I can't be bothered saying pleasant things about babies any more - I'll only get it wrong.
In our society where we still ritually exclude people, when I read, "The President of the United States is an important position, he carries responsibility ...." I tend to assume that "he" means "he" until it is proven beyond reasonable doubt not to be the case. That is the problem with our language.
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#83278
10/11/2002 8:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
"The President of the United States..he carries.. "he" means "he" My feeling has always been: if we try to achieve equality by starting from the language angle, we are putting the cart before the horse, and no progress will be achieved. Who knows, if equality was achieved, would there still be a need for presidents- male, female or neuter ??
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#83279
10/11/2002 9:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>if we try to achieve equality by starting from the language angle Agreed, but we're not "starting" from the language angle, it just re-inforces the way society used to be at every turn. On the other hand, of course, if a country were to allow a female leader to get in then they could have their own Maggie Thatcher. http://politics.guardian.co.uk/redbox/story/0,9029,748940,00.html
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#83280
10/11/2002 9:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Mostly babies seem to get called it, at least around this part of the world and I can't imagine a reasonable mother* objecting to anyone calling her baby beautiful.
The president example is a little narrow; we've never had a female president. How'd y'all handle that in Ireland, Rube? Or anyone know from Iceland? How do they do it when talking about their president?
*Is that an oxymoron?
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#83281
10/11/2002 1:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
Every citizen should pay their taxes, which, in turn, buys them the right to be tax-paying citizens
I'd go for this kind of construction, where appropriate. Sometimes sounds a bit stilted (in fact it does here), but I can live with that.
Mind you, with just a little thought you can usually re-work PC sentences into something slightly more palatable:
"Every citizen should pay taxes, which, in turn, buys them the right to be called a tax-paying citizen"
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#83282
10/11/2002 2:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Since the wording is "...THEIR taxes.." I guess the speaker is referring to direct taxation. Not every citizen is liable to direct taxation, due to very low income perhaps, which means that "Every citizen should pay taxes..." is too sweeping.
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#83283
10/11/2002 3:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
Doing a Faldage  Here, have my place, David. I'm off to the back of the queue!
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#83284
10/11/2002 3:57 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
have my place, David
The torch has been passed, shona. It's now officially doing a Juan
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#83285
10/11/2002 8:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
The torch has been passedThat's as may be, nunclage, but I've bagsied a place on that big comfy couch right at the back of the line  And if you don't want second place, dxb is, I think, a most worthy understudy to the Juan.
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#83286
10/11/2002 11:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
a most worthy understudy
That'd be up to Juan. I'm retired.
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#83287
10/12/2002 3:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Here, now, what's all this faldagery going on with my good "name"? It's all very clear as cited in the dictionary section of the Ithaca Encyclopedia of Nit. You can't retire from, or relinquish, an inherent power, Faldage...you ARE, now and forevermore, the Nit King! O fearsome King of Nit, I bow before, and light years away from, your fearsome and omnipotent powers. Shona and me merely jesters and/or pages in your esteemed court...and that's all we can ever hope to be. Now here's the dictionary citation for all to see:
faldage: n. (origin: "a Cubs fan in New York" ) : 1. a miniscule, and sometimes presumptuous, dissection of formulas, phrases, historical facts, and any data in general, but usually directed at linguistic discussions.( ~he's a real faldage when it comes to picking nits!) 2. nit-knacker; nit-knackery; nit-knacking 3. v. to nit-knack; demonstrating a knack for picking nits ( ~he faldaged all through that citation!)
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#83288
10/12/2002 4:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Forgive me for derailing Won and Faldage's twaddle and getting back on the track of this interesting thread. It seems that this love of things PC, which above all seems to catch the attention of TV people, is getting so out of hand that no one wants to use a gender-specific word even when it's justified. Several times in the last month or so, I have heard TV announcers use "their" when referring to members of a group composed entirely of mothers, female lawyers, male prison inmates, etc.
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#83289
10/12/2002 2:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
you ARE, now and forevermore, the Nit King!
As is the line between insanity and genius, that between nitpickery and conceptual detection is exceeding thin.
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#83290
10/12/2002 3:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...is too sweeping.Who says there's anything wrong with picking nits? Conceptual detection, on the other hand... ------------------ Who knows, if equality was achieved, would there still be a need for presidents- male, female or neuter??But... but... but... we ARE equal, which, of course, explains why, no matter *whom is in office, nobody "can't get no - satisfaction". 
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#83291
10/12/2002 4:20 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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As is the line between insanity and genius, that between nitpickery and conceptual detection is exceeding thin.Granted, good sir. But just remember the old adage: You can't have your nit, and pick it too!And, Boby...you mean shona is exempt from twaddling! (and just to show that I'm a worthy apprentice, Faldage, Sire...exceeding ly).
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#83292
10/12/2002 5:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,661 |
...exceedingly).
...but Juan, that changes the whole *meaning of the sentence.
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#83293
10/12/2002 5:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
lander, I too have often wished for a nongendered set of pronouns. I don't like to use the plural pronouns as substitutes when they are being used to signify a singular; I don't like the awkwardness of the he-or-she construction; I don't like the default of the singular masculine pronoun when the noun might be feminine, although I use it for lack of an alternative.
I have mentally substituted "che" for "he or she". It seems like one could similarly tweek him-or-her, his-or-hers. Herm and hez?
Good luck.
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#83294
10/12/2002 5:18 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
changes the whole *meaning
Thank you, musick. You've given me a whole new understanding of the phrase passing strange. I stick by my usage.
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#83295
10/12/2002 6:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
It is only in writing that it really shows up, though.
I regularly talk to students about how they should deal with their tutors, and how they should consider who is the author of the bookk they are reading (this, in study skill classes), As both authors and tutors come in any possible variety of genders, I regularly refer to he-or-she, him-or-her-, his-or-hers in my lectures and never see any adversxe reaction from my audience (and this is often in groups as small as six or eight, where body-language feedback is very apparent.)
However, I do agree that in written language, it is obtrusive, if so written. As shona says, a little thought will permit you to write these things in reasonably smooth English, most of the time.
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#83296
10/12/2002 7:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
And there was a practice adopted for awhile, and still in use by some non-fiction authors, to use he/him and she/her intermittently in whole sections of the text, pointing this out to the reader in the prologue as being done in "the interests of fairness". But this practice always seemed awkward and heavy-handed to me. Now, it seems, this gender-doubling of pronouns has largely faded from use. And BTW...third person or third perdaughter?
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#83297
10/13/2002 9:18 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,146 |
I agree with Rhuby and the moll from Michigan that the awkwardness caused by a lack of non-specific pronouns is most apparent in writing. Well, when you're trying to be PC, that is. When I was lecturing I tried a number of approaches. The one I found worked the best for me was to spread it 50/50 between "his" and "her".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#83298
10/14/2002 1:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
...you mean shona is exempt from twaddling! But of course, Juanage. I never get sidetracked or veer away from the thread's true purpose, especially in Q&A [innocence] I'm a North-going Zax, make North-going tracks..Well.. It's a fair cop. Cuff me, Danno. As a form of atonement, please allow me to promote the Spartan use of invented PC terms for 3rd-person singular. Let's have a little competition.
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#83299
10/15/2002 2:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 9 |
I agree that there is a substantial biological and cultural dimension to this. It would seem that in all language groups, distinguishing between male and female when referring to persons is important, if not critical.
As to manufactured words, I guess we'll have to take Shakespeare to task... eponymous unum =;-]
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