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Appropriately enough, this member agrees with the old hand. I'm keepin' my hands off that one! Yipe!
the vast difference (even total opposition) between the portrayal of God in the Old Testament and the New.
It is strange, isn't it? I've often thought that the Old
Testament may be that way due to the simplistic beliefs of the time, e.g. that weather events were not random, but
purposefully chosen by some unknown Being, who had better
be appeased. And yet, civilization was hardly advanced by the time of Christ's birth! Dare I say it?--he might have
been real.
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old hand
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Jackie I am sorely tempted to round up all my F.A.C.T.S. colleagues and march at your statement... In reply to:
And yet, civilization was hardly advanced by the time of Christ's birth! Dare I say it?--he might have been real.
But this board is about language, not comparative religion, or history. Suffice to say that the Roman Empire was suffused, at the time, with interesting spiritual notions from the East; Mithrasism (or Mithraism) being the most well known of them. Also, it was arguably the most advanced civilisation in the West until the mediaeval period. Finally, a lot of the Old Testament was written without reference to the nearly contemporaneous great Greek philosophers. The New Testament, written within the Roman civilisation, can hardly have failed to be influenced by them...
For what it's worth, I believe the scholarly opinion is that somebody called Jesus, who founded a religion latterly called Christianity, is likely to have lived around that time. The scholars are, of course, silent about his putative divinity!
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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My sweet shanks--
notice I said "might". And I meant it as a person, not as "The Son". I agree with your statements, my dear! :-)
I really didn't and don't want to get into a discussion on religion. But all of this gives excellent examples of the efficacy, or lack thereof, of our attempts at communication using language. Jesus' (if he existed) statements may have
been written incorrectly, translated incorrectly, and just
plain misinterpreted at the time. We may not have found everything that was written about him.
My failure to specify my meaning was another example. No
offense was meant.
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old hand
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I am inoffensible! (Maybe I should put that in the coinages forum?)
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Pooh-Bah
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]green]. But wouldn't masturbation have had a category all of its own?
It certainly did, Shona - In Victorian Public Schools (and right up until WW2 in some of them, I believe) it was known as "Self-Pollution."
Sorry to be a bit late with this - I've only just got back to work today after a long and arduous week-end, in which pollution of any sort didn't figure at all.
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>pocket billiards/pool
is billiards (sans pockets) played at all in the U.K.? the last time I saw a "billiards" table here was in "Hustler" (Paul Newman, again). [and the last time I saw a snooker table I was in college <mumble> years ago.]
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Pooh-Bah
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I do believe that billiards is still played in places but I don't move in the right circles.
Unfortunately many pubs tend to have pool tables rather than either billiards or snooker. I suspect because it has a smaller table (so it takes up less space) and the game is shorter (giving more people a chance to play and generating more money).
I know of one version of late night billiards which has rather simple rules - no spitting, no gouging, no other rules. The last surviving player wins. I haven't played it but I know people who have survived!
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old hand
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Billiards is certainly something of a special/cult sport. Fron what I remember (Bombay childhood) India nay claim to be the most successful nation of recent recent times, with record-breaking world champions through the 70s and 80s in Michael Ferreira and Geet Sethi.
One must ask, nevertheless, whether great value must be attached to a break of over a thousand that was compiled using only the three (or is it four) balls available, and took a couple of hours to complete...
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#8203
10/24/2000 10:46 PM
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"Self-Pollution."
Cheers, Rhub. Yes, that sounds about right for teecha terminology - and back then it probably wouldn't be applied to smoking, which would be the first association these days.
But what would the kids themselves have called it?
"Jerking off"? Or did we get that from over the Pond? Hang on, this could be time to get into tsuwm's slang references.
Sorry to hear about the pollution-free weekend. Sad to say most of us have to spend a little time in the Garden (usually with the sprats)...
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#8204
10/24/2000 11:02 PM
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pubs tend to have pool tables rather than either billiards or snooker
Indeed they do. Though there's a fair amount of bar billiards played hereabouts. I'll have to find a link for this, as an explanation would be complex!
I know of quite a few snooker clubs, but I don't actually know of any billiard clubs. Isn't the same size table used for billiards as snooker?
Beastlified if I know.
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#8205
10/24/2000 11:08 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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>Bar billiards
Ooooh - I love bar billards. The local when I was at college had a game and it was the highlight of many an evening spent avoiding exams.
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#8206
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Fron what I remember (Bombay childhood) India
May I ask what you think of "Mumbai"? Since you were born there, it would be interesting to hear your views on the reversion, if that's what it is. The real reason for this post however was simply to ask if your childhood included playing carom? My Dad's family brought a board and pieces out with them when they emigrated here in 1948, and I remember it as a very fun game, even if the square board meant that the angles didn't translate well to rectangular snooker tables.
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Aah! Max, are we related?? I played carom as a
child, on my cousin's board! Hexagonal, I think, or was it
octagonal? (This was a portable, flat board, and the
pieces were thumped with the fingers.)
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Wow! I didn't know that carom boards came in different shapes. I saw a photo on the Web from a carom tournament in the US, where all the competitors appeared to be emigrés from the Indian subcontinent, and all the boards visible (about 12) were square. My Dad would be aghast to hear that you thumped the pieces - he spent years trying, wih limited success, to teach me a very refined, silky-smooth flicking action with index and middle finger! 
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Max
I wasn't born in India - St Marys Hospital, Paddington, London, had that dubious privilege. I was brought up in Bombay though, and 22 years of it meant the city did get under my skin in more ways than one. As far as the name is concerned, some points to note:
1. The change to Mumbai cannot properly be called a reversion. There never was a city, or a town, called Mumbai. The area was first settled by, we are told 'Koli' people, fisherfolk who worshipped a deity called MumbaDevi, hence the alleged etymology of the current name. But…
2. The area in question was a small archipelago with many tiny fishing communities, notionally owned by Portugal in the 15th and 16th centuries, and used by them because there was a relatively deep, sheltered from the storm, natural harbour East of the islands, between them and the mainland. This good harbour (or bay), was allegedly called Bom Bahia by the Portuguese. You chooses your history and you takes your pick - decent attestation for neither name is available.
3. Certainly, it was only after the 1600s, when the area was given to the British as part of a wedding dowry, did the modern city begin to take shape. Land was 'reclaimed' between the islands and they began to form part of the single tapering peninsula that is modern Bombay. Each island, by the way, had its own, well-established name at the time, again raising doubts about the provenance of Mumbai. The largest was Salsette, today forming the bulk of 'Greater Bombay', whereas the modern city is composed of five or six former islands including Colaba, Mahim and others.
4. Given all this, I find little substance in the claim that 'Mumbai' is the true, or native name of the city, particularly since the 'natives' never created the city in the first place. But…
5. Whilst I, having left nearly a decade ago, can be crusty and reactionary and stick to calling it Bombay (mu Bombay, goddammit), I recognise that politics can often override my personal preferences. The fascistic, nationalistic bunch of thugs (I say this advisedly) who have taken over Bombay's government over the past decade, will have it called Mumbai, and threaten all businesses with dire consequences if they don't toe the line. So the change seems now to be a fait accompli. In a generation or two, they may be wondering what the fuss was all about. I, however, will regret the loss of the city of my youth…
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Thank you, shanks, for a beautifully lucid exposition of Bombay's history. My own knowledge of Indian history is very limited, mainly marginal to my work on C19 British Social history, but this has fired my imagination. I must start delving.
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Max and others
1. As far as I am aware, carrom (as I've always spelt it), is only played on square boards. The holes/pockets, are at each corner.
2. There is a special 'piece', the Striker, which you place on your base line and use to hit the other 'coins'. Strikers are usually made of some heavy plastic, celluloid used to be favoured (and before that, ivory). The striker must always be 'flicked' by forefinger or middle finger (depending upon local rules, the thumb may be allowed for 'back' shots), and never pushed.
3. There are nine white coins, nine black coins, and one red/purple coin - the Queen. Coins are made of wood. The black and white coins count a point each, and the Queen counts 5.
4. Tournament level boards have a playing surface of a 4 foot square (approximately), with edges at least 5 or 6 inches thick (to provide solidity for a consistent rebound).
5. Preferred 'lubricant' for the board is Boric Acid powder.
Yes, obviously, I played the game a great deal when I was younger. I worked in an advertising agency in Bombay for about 4 and a half years, and each lunch time was spent playing carrom. What joy it is to have had a misspent youth! I could bore you, if you wanted, with further detail, but perhaps this is enough.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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Be prepared for the brilliant language of propaganda in all things related to India. My favourite is this: in 1857, as is well known, there was a great deal of armed conflict all over India, primarily between native Indians, and their White/British 'overlords'.
In the UK, this conflict has always been called The Great Indian Mutiny.
In Indian history textbooks, it is only ever referred to as The First War of Indian Independence.
As I said before, you picks your side, and you chooses your nomenclature...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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2. There is a special 'piece', the Striker, which you place on your base line and use to hit the other 'coins'. Strikers are usually made of some heavy plastic, celluloid used to be favoured (and before that, ivory). The striker must always be 'flicked' by forefinger or middle finger (depending upon local rules, the thumb may be allowed for 'back' shots), and never pushed.My Dad had that 'back shot' down to a T - thanks for the nostalgia trip!
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#8214
10/25/2000 11:07 AM
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Max
I had flexible fingers but lousy long-distance aim, so 'back shots' were bread and butter for me too! Thank you too for allowing me to wallow - been a long time since I thought about carrom.
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#8215
10/25/2000 11:24 AM
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this board is about language, not comparative religion, or history
I agree, shanks - but oftimes these matters (and much more) are nigh on impossible to separate. Meaning is defined by context at least as much as content.
"Suffice it to say"s like yours are meat and drink, as far as I'm concerned!
The word - or name, or finger pointing at the Moon - in this case was, of course, "God"; and its meaning went through an almost complete enantiodroma (any excuse!) in the time between the Old and the New Testaments.
I always liked Alan Watts' suggestion that "God" should be seen as an exclamation rather than a name.
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Be prepared for the brilliant language of propaganda in all things related to India. My favourite is this: in 1857, as is well known, there was a great deal of armed conflict all over India, primarily between native Indians, and their White/British 'overlords'.
In the UK, this conflict has always been called The Great Indian Mutiny.
In Indian history textbooks, it is only ever referred to as The First War of Indian Independence.
Here's another name for the same event - The Sepoy Mutiny. The insurrection (neutral enough?) is of considerable interest to me, as it started in Meerut, the same city, where, 76 years later, my father was born. His grandfather came out with the British Army in 1859, so he may well have been part of a deployment in response to the "incident". I can't get away from the Raj, as the town where I live, Hastings, was settled around that time, and there are many street and town names redolent of that era - Simla (my Dad's father was fond of saying that in summer, a cigarette paper separated Simla from Hell), Lucknow, Warren, Clive, etc. With the passage of time, I have come to believe that my father's duskiness(the word seems to have a lovely Kiplingesque quality about it), and physiognomy cast grave doubt on his assertion that he has no ethnic ties to the Indian subcontinent - I suspect that all was not pukka in his family tree!
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Wow, reading about Carrom made me think of skully, a street gave in NY (sadly, like ringalevio, no longer played)
The playing field was chalked into a concrete slab of sidewalk, (about 4' x 4') and it had target areas (9 total), at each corner, center side edge, and final in dead center. Often the targets where subdivided. Each was numbered, and 1 was diagonally opposite 2, 3 in another corner, 4 opposite that. The target area was about 2 inches square.
It was played with bottle caps, preferable made heaver by melting in a wax crayon--which also made it easer to keep track of who belongs to which game piece. Adding washer or lead before melting the wax made your "man" heavier, and harder to knock out of bounds, but it also made it harder to control.
You scored by landing your game piece inside a target area in strict order--but you improved your odd at wining if, along the way you managed to knock your opponents markers out of bounds... since marker put out of bounds had to start over again.
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enthusiast
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I've never played carrom or skully, but carrom reminded me of a very simple game that we used to play at school - "push-penny". Two or more players had a coin each (same denomination for fairness) and the object was to push other players' coins off the edge of the table by flicking your own at it. A sliding form of marbles, if you like. Was/is this a common game, and does anyone know if it originated from carrom?
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#8219
10/25/2000 10:07 PM
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I suspect that all was not pukka in his family tree!
Funny that. I've always suspected that my family swung the 'other' way - too many hazel eyed cousins, etc! My own skin being too light to be properly Dravidian. Who were my grandmothers seeing on the side - that's what I want to know!
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#8220
10/25/2000 10:08 PM
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Push-penny = Shove ha'penny?
Anybody know?
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I've always suspected that my family swung the 'other' way
Oooo shanks. You don't want to say that here. Here, if your family had "swung the other way" you would not have made any babies at all. An important phrase to avoid if you ever come on a visit and you don't want to lead any gentlemen on.
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Who were my grandmothers seeing on the side
I am part Cherokee Indian (sorry, but it just sounds too silly to me to say "Cherokee native American")--definitely
Caucasian in appearance, but somewhat in the darker skin range of this group. My son is really dark.
About grandmothers--my husband explains this part of my
heritage by saying that one of my ancestors couldn't
run fast enough!
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Carrom is also played here in Indonesia, where it's known as karombol . I've never played it but I've seen sets in shops. I'm told it's very popular among students and the underemployed.
Bingley
Bingley
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Pooh-Bah
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>underemployed
Potential awadeers then!
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So it's true - British irony can be too subtle for Americans at times....
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In reply to:
I am part Cherokee Indian (sorry, but it just sounds too silly to me to say "Cherokee native American")
Would it perhaps be simpler to say "I am part Cherokee"?
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Pooh-Bah
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Shanks
What is that saying about "angels fear to tread" - I really wouldn't go there!!!
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Hi Shanks, Sorry my response to this comes a bit late, but thanks for your fantastic write up about Bombay. More than half of what you wrote was news to me,  although I belong to Maharashtra - or Goa to be more precise. I speak Marathi, the language spoken in Bombay. (for the others) Yes, changing the name was a mistake. In Marathi, Bombay has been called Mumbai all along, and it has never sounded odd to me. But the moment, in other languages, English or Hindi, people began referring to the city as Mumbai - it sounded awful . I don't have a deep love for the city because I never lived there. My main unhappiness is for the extinction of the word Bombay. I think it is a lovely word and it beautifully captures the crazy chaotic nature of the city.
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Lol!
I'm just trying to investigate the current state of affairs regarding political correctness etc, whilst also trying, in my small way, to keep the word Indian reserved for people from India!
We've been down the politically correct language thread before (somewhere in the vaults), and we managed to do that without too much bloodshed. Or did we?
Heigh-ho for the life of a sailor...
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Push-penny = Shove ha'penny?
Exactly my thought, shanks.
Marty compares push-penny to marbles; the intention appears to be to knock out opponents rather than score points as such.
If I'm thinking about the right animal, shove ha'penny on the other hand is a point scoring game, and takes place on a board. You try to knock the coins (or counters)
into specific lanes, each with a different points value. So you'd have, say, one 6-point lane, three 1-point lanes, two 2-point lanes etc.
It's fascinating how you end up with all these cross-overs, and start discerning a few fundamental game "templates".
Is there one ultimate underlying game, do you think?
The Glass Bead Game perhaps?!
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Avy Good to see you here. Do you live in Goa? One of my favourite places in India - I don't think I will ever forget the joys of Goa sausage, the beach, and beer with ice in it! Marathi is one of my favourite Indian languages - forcefully expressive, but capable of great delicacy and beauty at times. Swearing in Marathi was always so much more fun than swearing in Hindi! One of my best friends here is a Maharashtrian, so we sometimes get our 'fix' by calling each other up and leaving random gaalis on each others' voice mail! cheer the sunshine warrior
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The Glass Bead Game perhaps?!
Probably more like: "Here is how I would have killed the mammoth if D-Bhurg-ash there had not been such a coward" "Oh, yeah, well I could have killed it quicker than you." "No, me - because my aim is true".
A name contracted, after the first World Cup, to the more manageable 'Aim', later corrupted to 'game' - hence the word we all use and love these days.
cheer
the sunshine (fan of Just So Stories) warrior
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British ironyShhhh! 
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Just So
Definitely the way it really happened! All very impressive being Magister Ludi, but when did he last get a ball in the back of the net, eh?
D-Bhurg-ash wasn't really a coward, by the way. It had just occurred to her that there wasn't room in the pantry cave for yet another mammoth leg. She'd been on at A-Wod-lah for ages to finish the cave extension, but where was he yet again? Off comparing mammoth sizes with the other boys.
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