#79950
09/08/2002 3:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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According to a History Channel Documentary I've been watching, women who dated servicemen in the US during WWII toted a double-edged sword. On one hand there was the view they were performing a patriotic service by entertaining and comforting the troops on leave. On the other, they were looked down upon as improper women of low moral character and disparagingly dubbed (not Dub-Dubbed  ) victory girls or even, more disparagingly, patriotutes. I searched everywhere for these terms with no luck. (Dr. Bill?) They also said that in Spring of 1941 the moral prudes and religious fundamentalists gathered forces (surprise, surprise, nothing new) and managed to get The May Act passed which effectively outlawed prostitution in the US under the guise that it was feared it would spread veneral disease among the troops and render them incapable of fighting. I searched for The May Act and not one hit...strange. They then went on to say how J. Edgar Hoover received and then issued a memo immediately upon passage of the act that enabled government agents to monitor the lives of "suspect women". High among these suspect women where waitresses, a job considered beneath proper ladies, that "no good woman would have"...and there were actually sweeps where waitresses were rounded up, thousands suffered this fate, and they were accused of prostitution, incarcerated, and tested for syphilis just because they were waitresses!...there was a mention of one such sweep of 25 women in Alabama, and another of hundreds of women in Texas. (my, my, the things the history books omit for us). Anyone familiar with victory girl/patriotute or The May Act? Or these waitress sweeps? (waitress sweeps...what a ridiculous notion, huh?) Much of the material for this documentary was drawn from this woman's work: Marilyn Hegarty, "Patriots, Prostitutes, Patriotutes: The Mobilization and Control of Female Sexuality in the U.S. during World War II," 1998. Hegarty has already published an article based on her M.A. thesis, and a revised version of her dissertation is under consideration at the University of California Press. She is a Senior Lecturer at Ohio State.
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#79951
09/08/2002 7:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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W'on,
I googled ' "May Act" WWII legislation prostitution ' and got quite a few hits. This below is from the first, way down the page:
In July, at the instance of the American Social Hygiene Association, the May Act, making prostitution a Federal offense in the areas in which it was invoked, was passed by Congress. It was supported by the Surgeons General of the Army, Navy, and U.S. Public Health Service. The War Department shortly afterward issued instructions to commanders of corps areas as to the procedure for invoking the act, and a Division of Social Protection was set up in the Office of Defense Health and Welfare Services in the fall to aid in the repression of commercialized prostitution by working through State and local authorities. The Army was unwilling to invoke the act, however, except as a last resort in areas where local authorities had unquestionably failed to cooperate in its program. It was sensitive to the reaction of local communities, some of which insisted that they wanted to take repressive measures themselves and wanted only the Army's moral backing. Although Charles P. Taft, Assistant Director of the Office of Defense Health and Welfare Services (like the U.S. Public Health Service, under the jurisdiction of the Federal Security Administrator), apparently agreed with the Army's position, in the latter part of 1941 Drs. Thomas Parran and R. A. Vonderlehr, Surgeon General and Assistant Surgeon General of the U.S. Public Health Service, criticized the Army in a jointly written book, "Plain Words About Venereal Disease," for its failure to invoke the May Act.
The url's long and I haven't braved trying makeashorterlink yet. But the site is the first you'd get if you googled just as I did above.
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#79952
09/08/2002 12:44 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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[bit of feminist rant]
well i have heard of the The May Act it forbids unmarried men and woman from sharing a hotel room, and it also makes it illegal for a woman to cross a state line in a car, when accompanied only by an man (that she is not not married or related to)...
The May Act like many laws, make the problem, the womans, (i.e., she could be arrested and prosicuted, and he would be let go. just as now days, still, prostitutes are arrested, but their 'customers' are almost never 1) arrested, or 2) prosicuted. )
Notice that waitresses where rounded up...
a classic sort of thing.. like the suggestion that woman walking out alone at night are likely to either be prostitutes or raped, and so they should be curfewed...
(and a feminist countered, "why not curfew the men?")
and in these round-ups of woman, surprize, surprize they always failed to arrest the 50 year old fat ones, and only rounded up slender woman, especial young ones, who didn't know their rights, and were easily intimidated.. then they arrested them, often forced them to "change" in to prison garb, and be given physical exams, all with no privatcy. (in otherwords, it was cops and sheriffs getting their jollies, and pretending to enforce the law)
and since the woman most often effected where poor, (and poor woman have frequently been a target for abuse) they got away with it for a while.
[/rant]
well at least you are open minded and reading about it Whit.
but i didn't know the term victory girls or patriot toots!
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#79953
09/08/2002 1:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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"Patriots, Prostitutes, Patriotutes:
Oh, sheesh!...noting the title of Hegarty's work, what sounded like patriot toot when spoken is actually, patriotute...a combination of patriot and prostitute. (d'oh!...sorry)
There's 4 citations of patriotute on Google, but no hits on OneLook (wwftd alert, tsuwm?)
May Act
Thanks, WW...I tried every combo of May Act with prostitution/US/legal/illegal/outlawed/WWII...but not legislation.
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#79954
09/08/2002 1:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I don't remember the May Act. But I do remember "johns" being arrested in Boston.
"
Here in Boston, the story is much the same as it is elsewhere. The Boston Police Department has
just launched its sixth encore of Operation Squeeze. The procedure is simple: groups of police
officers, male and female, assume the roles of prostitutes and johns in areas where prostitution is
rampant. Once the undercover streetwalker is solicited, backup officers move in and make the
arrest Police release the names and residences of the arrested johns to the press, which sometimes
publishes them. Punishment ranges from fines and mandatory AIDS education to hours of community
service, including sweeping and cleaning the very streets those men cruised in search of sex. "
I do remember story about stripper whose defense was "Those soldiers are fighting to save American
womanhood aren't they? Well, we're showing them what they're fighting for."
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#79955
09/08/2002 1:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I do remember story about stripper whose defense was "Those soldiers are fighting to save American
womanhood aren't they? Well, we're showing them what they're fighting for."Yes, Doctor...I believe that was Sally Rand, best-known for her famed "fan dance." http://www.dumboozle.com/sally/sallydex.html
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#79956
09/08/2002 1:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Dear WO'N: Was Sally Rand the one who could shimmy so that one nipple circled
clockwise, while the other circled counterclockwise?
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#79957
09/08/2002 2:45 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dody taught me how to make a shorter link, so let's see whether this works: http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z2BD549B1Edit: It worked! Hooray! Another computer gizmo to add to my little bag of tricks. Thanks Dody! WW
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#79958
09/08/2002 2:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Here in Denver we have Johns TV, where the names and mug shots of those convicted of soliciting a prostitute are shown on network tv. in Aurora, we go one step further: on our local TV channel they show the names and mug shots of those charged but not yet convicted.
We've gotten sex off the streets and into the bordellos where it belongs!
Eighteen months or so ago, we were in Myrtle Beach, SC. Peggy is a quilter and was looking for fabric stores in the local yellow pages. There weren't may fabric stores, but there were a total of about seventy five pages of ads for "escort services." According to the locals, this is because MB is a haven for geographical bachelors who flock there to play golf and then just f**k there.
TEd
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#79959
09/08/2002 3:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear WO'N: Was Sally Rand the one who could shimmy so that one nipple circled clockwise, while the other circled counterclockwise?I don't know, Dr. Bill...I wasn't there! 
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#79960
09/08/2002 5:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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>the The May Act... forbids unmarried men and woman from sharing a hotel room, and it also makes it illegal for a woman to cross a state line in a car, when accompanied only by an man (that she is not not married or related to)...
that sounds something like the Mann Act.
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#79961
09/08/2002 7:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Trust tsuwm.
Mann Act 7man8
5after J. R. Mann (1856-1922), U.S. Congressman6 an act of Congress (June, 1910) prohibiting the interstate transportation of women for immoral purposes, as white slavery
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#79962
09/09/2002 2:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
WO'N,
Why is that a *double edge sword? Seems to me it only cuts *one way.
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#79963
09/09/2002 2:47 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Why is that a *double edge sword? Seems to me it only cuts *one way.
Well, insel...it seems that as victory girls they were praised for spending their time with servicemen, that it was noble and patriotic to mingle with and date the boys to lift their morale; but then, in another breath, they were denigrated as patriotutes for dating servicemen, and as a bad influence on the boys. A real double standard.
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#79964
09/09/2002 9:31 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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I gotta go with Rock Island here. The metaphorical double edged sword cuts both the intended victim and the wielder. They's some nother term for this and Catch-22 doesn't quite hack it, either.
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#79965
09/09/2002 6:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
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#79966
09/09/2002 6:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I gotta go with Rock Island here. The metaphorical double edged sword cuts both the intended victim and the wielder. They's some nother term for this and Catch-22 doesn't quite hack it, either.Hmmm, Faldage...I didn't know you knitted with swords, too...but be some interesting and large sweaters and scarves!
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#79967
09/09/2002 6:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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There you go again. If your double edged sword cuts with one edge and heals with the other I think you need to sharpen the other edge. And if that's picking nits then black *is white and I'd advise you to stay clear of zebra crossings.
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#79968
09/09/2002 6:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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There you go again. Thanks, Ronnie!  And, BTW, which 2 comes first in Catch-22?
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#79969
09/09/2002 6:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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which 2 comes first in Catch-22?
Duh!. The first one.
It's not a Catch-22 because that would imply that they were castigated if they *did go out with servicemen and also if they didn't.
You *did know that Heller originally wanted to call the book Catch-18, didn't you?
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#79970
09/09/2002 6:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Duh!. The first one.Thanks for the answer to that crucial question!...I've been pondering it for years!
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#79971
09/09/2002 6:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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It's not a Catch-22 because that would imply that they were castigated if they *did go out with servicemen and also if they didn't.
So we're looking for a synonymn for, or something similar to, double standard...as in they were "held to a double standard".
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#79972
09/09/2002 6:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Not sure double standard makes it, either. I would infer a double standard to mean that it was OK for, say, men to go out with servicemen, but not for women to go out with servicemen. What we're looking for here is more a "one hand giveth while the other taketh away" kinda thang.
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#79973
09/09/2002 6:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Damned if you do, and damned if you don't!
yes, its is a classic double standand... women were supposed to befriend and comfort soldiers... but only up to a point... and since the Point is never defined... but is rather based entirely on subjective standards, it make it almost impossible to succeed. and the cost of failure is high. Ain't it grand to be a woman!
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#79974
09/09/2002 7:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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I stick by my earlier post. It's a double standard if one group is allowed to practice a certain behavior but another group is condemned for it. Having an undefined line over which thou shalt not step is not a double standard. It's something totally else.
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#79975
09/09/2002 7:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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but both existed.. "good girls" could often get away with behavior that would have a poor girl black listed--
and never forget, until abortion became legal, rich girls never got in trouble... they took vacations to tropical resorts (where abortion was legal.) or they had doctors who were willing to do "d & c"'s... so it was just hushed up..
middle class girls were shipped off to "private schools" or went to visit someone... and reappeared a year later... it was poor girls who didn't have the money to get an abortion or to go off to a "home for girls" who where seen as having 'loose morals' -- and so too with dating.. rich girls often had more private places to meet men/soldiers. poor girls had back alley's... and there was also a general presumption that a lady wouldn't misbehave, and could be trusted.. but poor girls were presumed to be of looser morals! so there was a double standand..
and it still exists.
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#79976
09/10/2002 4:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
What we're looking for here is more a "one hand giveth while the other taketh away" kinda thang.
Almost a backhanded compliment, only consisting of two parts (the complimentary and the offensive).
Nah, not quite right.
I was thinking double bind, but that's more "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Actually, that's it isn't it?
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#79977
09/10/2002 4:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
How about:
Heads you win, tails you lose.
Not the way its usually put, but seems appropriate.
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#79978
09/10/2002 5:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
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Victory Girls were females who went out about every night, dating a lot of soldiers, sailors Marines, sometimes two or even three dates a night! Some "put out" and some did not. They all had the "patriotic" reason.
Patriotutes were prostitutes who tried to pass themselves off as Victory Girls - the difference was apparent when Patriotutes expected money for services rendered.
Victory Girls were generaly middle or poor class gals (as Helen noted) Some Victory Girls were quite nice average females who even ended up marrying someone they dated. Some Victory Girls also took the time to write notes to many of the servicemen they dated on a "final leave."
There was a story around at the time that prostitutes were complaining about the drop in their incomes because so many "Victory Girls" were giving it away for free!
On another note :
In general, in New England, waitressing is a more respected calling than in other parts of the US. IMHO it's because so many waitresses are college kids (the NE is loaded with colleges in a small area) or they are local folks who would not put up with being treated disrespectfully, nor would restaurant managers take kindly to anyone's "interfering with" a waitress.
I noticed a difference in the way waitresses are treated --and how they respond to unwanted advances or remarks -- in New England and outside New England on my several cross-country car trips.
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#79979
09/10/2002 6:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I noticed a difference in the way waitresses are treated ... in New England and outside New England
So what you're saying, wow, is
You might be a Yankee if...
...you treat waitresses as though they were human beings.
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#79980
09/10/2002 9:10 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
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addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
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