#79790
09/05/2002 1:27 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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...etymology of the word "niggardly"? The word sounds like a certain offensive N word but am I right in that it has no linguistic relation to that word? See link below for news story regarding "niggardly" and politcal correctness. http://www.newsobserver.com/nc24hour/ncnews/story/1699649p-1717688c.html
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#79791
09/05/2002 1:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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#79792
09/05/2002 9:15 AM
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Great reference, Alex - full of wisdom regarding PC speech.
I love the approach where the targets of offensive speech "repossess" (think that's the term) what were formerly judged offensive terms. Gays are particularly good at this in my experience. It's a brilliant way of putting the intolerant and ignorant on the back foot.
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#79793
09/05/2002 9:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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I can't think why one would think that niggardly had a racial context. Niggerly, certainly, and possibly this is what caused the confusion!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#79794
09/05/2002 9:58 AM
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But then one wonders; if one discovers that one is doing something that one doesn't need to do and that that something is offending a large group of people, even if one can't understand why it is offending them, does one need to continue doing it?
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#79795
09/05/2002 10:45 AM
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does one need to continue doing it?
Predictably: it depends.
If the people offended are actually offended by what they think you said rather than what you actually said, it's quite important, and sometimes crucial, to straighten out the misunderstanding.
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#79796
09/05/2002 10:51 AM
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it depends.
Of course we have the old slippery slope argument, but then when was the last time you heard someone complain about Politically Correct demands forcing us to talk about drumsticks on a turkey or chicken? The concerns of the offended in this case are not rational I will not be effectively addressed in a rational manner.
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#79797
09/05/2002 3:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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>I will not be effectively addressed in a rational manner.
hmm.. prolly not; at least until you stop pickin' at those nits.
8)
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#79798
09/05/2002 4:01 PM
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hmm.. prolly not; at least until you stop pickin' at those nits. They must have come with the chickens and turkeys.  BTW, I'm told that chewing lice (Mallophaga) are deeply offended by being associated with sucking lice (Anoplura), as is implied by the blanket term "nit". Due to negative associations, all lice would also be grateful if we would never refer to any individual member of their species as a "louse". At such times please use the singular form of the scientific name for the appropriate species, i.e. mallophagus or anoplurus. Thank you.
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#79799
09/05/2002 5:53 PM
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Posts: 13,803
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pickin' at those nits.
How'd that "it" turn into an "I"? It was an "it" when I was thinking it! That'll larn me to post before I done finished my first cup coffee.
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#79800
09/06/2002 1:29 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
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A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
What was the message given to the little fourth grade black boy who was offended by the teaching of the word "niggardly"?
(a) Even though you were mistaken in being offended, your class-induced, self-perceived, sense of inferiority can be transmuted into power and attention by citing victimhood, rather than striving in a white man's game that is already rigged.
(b) Words like "niggardly", very much too close to the offensive word "nigger", are taboo in the enlightened brave new world of today.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Send your contributions to the United Negro College Fund.
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#79801
09/06/2002 7:30 AM
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Seriously, folks, I wouldn't use the term "niggardly" around elementary school-aged children. With such a bounty of synonyms available, why cause confusion and offense? And to explain the term would just cause more confusion and offense. Really. Kids hear a little of what you say--and you often lose their attention when something that you said that they haven't understood has grasped their imaginations and they turn you off. I'm talking about little kids here. Certainly by high school, niggardly on a vocabularly test would be fine.
I think it's so weird--and I don't understand the pheonomenon at all!--that black people can refer to each other as "niggers" so easily and with humor and sometimes, too, with insult. Of course, out of the mouth of anybody else of any other color, it becomes a word that damns the speaker. I understand the damning of the speaker, but I just don't understand why nigger is used so freely among black people. Is there any other instance of an offensive term being used by a group that will not tolerate its use by members outside of the group?
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#79802
09/06/2002 11:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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Sure - homo, queer, and fag immediately pop to mind. Perfectly standard usage among the gay community, whether self-referential or inter-referential Did I just make that up?, yet taken as completely offensive if used as a term of derision from those who are not. As a longtime fag-hag, I can usually get away with it, but only in the company of boys with whom I have an established friendship.
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#79803
09/06/2002 12:41 PM
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homo, queer, and fag immediately pop to mindThe bunch of gays you know must be pretty different to the bunch of gays I know, FB. If someone shouted at them "You're a homo/queer/fag/poof/queen" they'd almost definitely ignore the tone of voice and say "Yes. So?" or - more often - they'd respond with something more witty. "You're just a disgusting old queer" would be met with "Take that back - I'm only 25. Every birthday."  I'd find it quite hard to come up with a term that my gay friends would find genuinely offensive, in fact - unless it was in the realms of "child-rapist" or whatever, which is something else entirely. Dunno, I live quite close to Brighton, which has a significant gay population, so my experiences may not be representative. And then the English (can't really speak for the whole UK) attitude to gays, which is coloured by a long-standing appreciation of theatrical camp, may make a difference.
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#79804
09/06/2002 2:30 PM
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Posts: 1,156
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Is there any other instance of an offensive term being used by a group that will not tolerate its use by members outside of the group?
Newfie: offensive when used by non-Newfoundlanders, tolerated among Newfoundlandlers, but others still don't like it said by anyone at all, presumably because of the dumb-lazy-Newfie stereotype that goes along with the word.
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#79805
09/08/2002 6:19 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
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my experiences may not be representative
I don't think they are, at least not for the US. Over here, being gay is still looked on with scorn, mainly from the religious right who still contend that it's a choice and think it's an immoral abomination in the eyes of God. You don't have a Laramie, Wyoming in the UK. The terms queer and fag are tossed around middle and high schools in the same way as sissy anymore. They're just generally insulting. When the source is filled with homophobic disgust, the terms aren't taken lightly. It really just depends on the tone of voice. Only the most self-confident queer with no fears of bashing would respond wittily to a random passerby shouting obscenities. Of course, in the company of friends, it would be much different.
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#79806
09/08/2002 8:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Words like "niggardly", very much too close to the offensive word "nigger", are taboo in the enlightened brave new world of today.
and...
Certainly by high school, niggardly on a vocabularly test would be fine.
...seem to be in conflict.
--------------
Is there any other instance of an offensive term being used by a group that will not tolerate its use by members outside of the group?
Ayleurs.
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#79807
09/08/2002 8:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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Is there any other instance of an offensive term being used by a group that will not tolerate its use by members outside of the group?
Ayleurs.A rimshot, a very palpable rimshot.
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#79808
09/08/2002 9:34 PM
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Posts: 13,858
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For every minority there is an offensive term. Xenophobia is very old. I can remember
"furinner" being spat out with contempt.
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#79809
09/09/2002 12:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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Damnit to Hell, Musick, it's times like this that I wish my half-mickey-irish, drunken-stereotyped, alcohol-befuddled brain could remember what "ayleurs" means.
Albeit, what I intended to convey in my poorly conceived but yet posted post, was irony.
(A) That by condescending to the kids ignorance we were directing him to a future of certain failure by our lies.
(B) Those soliciting funds with the slogan A Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Waste i.e., the "United Negro College Fund" - would find great offense if you referred to the recipients of your charitable largess as "Negros".
Is that not an ultimate of absurd paradox?
Imperative and fundamental to lifeforms such as we, is to build the best we can on our best constructions of reality, that is, truth.
(Associations. That seems to be my problem when I talk on this board. Oh well.)
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#79810
09/09/2002 1:11 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
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>I wish my . . . brain could remember what "ayleurs" means.
AYLEUR
Anything You Like Except Unanimous, with an r tacked on to make it flow better.
It is, I believe, Jackie's favourite neologism of all time
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#79811
09/09/2002 9:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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What's funny is ayleurs didn't stick, no matter who likes it or not--at least it didn't stick in the sense that it's what most on the whole board use when talking about ourselves. Most people refer to us as AWADers, which is not nearly as smooth as ayleurs. But I like the idea that way back there in everybody's brain who knows what ayleur means, the little battle never stops between those who like it, for whatever reason, and those who don't.
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#79812
09/09/2002 2:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
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>>my experiences may not be representative
Only the most self-confident queer with no fears of bashing would respond wittily to a random passerby shouting obscenities.
Yeah, point taken, Jazzo. Tolerant neighborhoods most of my adult life, perhaps, in that I've never seen or even heard of "queer-bashing" incidents. Certainly used to happen in England, and probably still does in certain areas. But unless there's a conspiracy of silence going on, it's very rare indeed, which is a damn good thing.
Doesn't detract from the fact that considerable (above average) self-confidence is required to meet venom with wit, though.
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#79813
09/09/2002 2:36 PM
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Posts: 1,346
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ayleurs didn't stick, no matter who likes it or not...Most people refer to us as AWADersHarrumph!(c)  It stuck with some of us, WW. I use it in every reasonable context, and would never use AWADers [I believe AWADees was another suggestion - better or worse?  ] Dear old Max Q and I were, of course, in the front-line for promoting the term (originated by shanks, RIP) in the face of viscous opposition. Ah, just found the first mention: http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=wordplay&Number=7137[sigh]
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#79814
09/09/2002 2:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
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viscous opposition (!?)
Ewwwww....
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#79815
09/09/2002 3:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
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>>viscous opposition (!?)
Ewwwww....[sic] [sic]
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#79816
09/09/2002 3:42 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
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actually®. according to shanks hisownself, Marty should get the discredit for ayleu.
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#79817
09/09/2002 6:42 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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It is, I believe, Jackie's favourite neologism of all time
Viscous! Viscous?? I'll give you viscous, all right! I am NOT an ayleur, have never been an ayleur, and refuse to be CALLED an ...an...one of those things. Growr. Just call me stick (in the mud). How I love, and long for, Shanks and Marty to return. I'm still in touch with Marty, though--in fact I just got an e-mail from him today. He's really busy at work and at home, and I'll put a quote--I don't think he'll mind: "My
interest in words is, however, undiminished."
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#79818
09/10/2002 2:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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Marty should get the discredit for ayleu.You're quite right of course, nunc. But Marty the chookman, too, appears to have wended away.  [sigh]
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#79819
09/10/2002 2:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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I'll give you viscous (we could do with a mischievous laugh) I'm still in touch with MartyExcellent! Please send him my best. I'd say suggest to him that he could always return on an occasional basis, but that was my intention, too. 
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#79820
09/10/2002 8:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
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>How I love, and long for, Shanks and Marty to return.
Indeed. The sunshine warrior particularly do I miss - his intelligence and passion sufficient to enable me to forgive him for being a Spurs fan.
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#79821
09/10/2002 8:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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Hey, Fish! Ayleurs may have stuck on you, but it sure as heck hasn't stuck with the board in general use. It has to be explained over and over. Now, don't get mad at me. I think it's a very nice word. And I like it for my own reasons. But people who drop in from time to time--even people who've been around for a while--always be grumblin' and askin' and wonderin' and frownin' they little brows over the meanin' of ayleurs. AWADers is right to the point. Maybe not so poetic or interesting, but 'tis a simple, immediately understandable term.
Best regards with no "harrumph," copyrighted or otherwise,
WW
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#79822
09/10/2002 8:18 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
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>Hey, Fish! Ayleurs may have stuck on you, but it sure as heck hasn't stuck with the board in general use.
For which tragedy blame can be laid squarely on the well-orchestrated campaign of vitriol run from Louahvull. ;^)
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#79823
09/11/2002 1:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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Tragedy? Tragedy!? Come on over here and I'll show you some tragedy! Well-orchestrated: well, I did used to play violin... :^)
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#79824
09/11/2002 9:45 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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For which tragedy blame can be laid
on the pure and simple fact that it isn't self-explanatory. Besides of which, it looks funny, and, by Safire's Law, if it looks funny...
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#79825
09/11/2002 8:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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#79826
09/11/2002 8:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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#79827
09/11/2002 9:13 PM
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Posts: 6,296
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Well, tsuwm, wuwm do you trust? That article was exceedingly long. I skimmed a little of it...long enough to find Safire's Law, but it doesn't sound like Faldage's reference at all... unless there were more Safirian laws. Here's what I found:
'Safire's Law of Who/Whom, which forever solves the problem troubling writers and speakers caught between the pedantic and the incorrect: "When whom is correct, recast the sentence." Thus, instead of changing his slogan to "Whom do you trust?"—making him sound like a hypereducated Yalie stiff—Mr. Bush would win back the purist vote with "Which candidate do you trust?" '
Thanks for providing the link...but skim is all the time I'll give it tonight.
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#79828
09/12/2002 9:23 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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If it sounds funny, the hell with it. His who/whom advice is merely a special case of Safire's Rule.
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#79829
09/12/2002 1:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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Oh, tsuwm! Thank you for that link! I am laughing out loud. How did I come to associate the title maven with being female, can you tell me? And what the heck does "radical Whorfianism" mean, in the article, please?
And now I finally know for sure what prescriptivist means; I'd never heard the term until I read it on this board, and kind of picked up the meaning by context.
I am rolling, over Mr. Pinker's comeback to arguments against sentences such as: If anyone calls, tell them I can't come to the phone. He says, in part, Such feelings of disquiet—a red flag to any serious linguist—are well founded in this case. The next time you get corrected for this sin, ask Mr. Smartypants how you should fix the following:
Mary saw everyone before John noticed them.
Now watch him squirm as he mulls over the downright unintelligible "improvement," Mary saw everyone before John noticed him.
The logical point that you, Holden Caulfield, and everyone but the language mavens intuitively grasp is that everyone and they are not an "antecedent" and a "pronoun" referring to the same person in the world, which would force them to agree in number. They are a "quantifier" and a "bound variable," a different logical relationship. You-all should really read the rest of it; it's great. (p. 378.)
Oh, he mentions something we've discussed here: that a baseball hitter flied out. tsuwm, I know you loved that section on verbing nouns! ;-)
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