#79713
09/04/2002 5:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
One of many things the alchemists sought was the universal solvent, the alkahest.
Perhaps it is just as well they never found it, for what could they have stored it in?
alkahest
n.
5Fr < ML alchahest: apparently coined by PARACELSUS the hypothetical universal solvent
sought by the alchemists
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#79714
09/18/2002 1:24 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 85
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 85 |
If you found something to put it in, then it wouldn't have been the alkahest. I love it. I wonder if they thought about that back in the day.
Though I suppose it could be, if it were something that was mixed on-site for immediate use. I vaguely remember having to mix some things years back, which came with directions to use immediately, because the container you mixed it in wouldn't last very long. Couldn't a substance still be an alkahest, if it didn't matter how *fast* it worked upon the substances it was in contact with?
Ali
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#79715
09/18/2002 2:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Seian: good to see you posting again. We need all the talent we can get.
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#79716
09/18/2002 2:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
what could they have stored it in?
Back then, nothing. Today, with the magic of electromagnetics and ionization, nothing. But today that method could work.
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#79717
09/18/2002 4:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
If you poured (an, the, some?) alkahest onto the ground would it ever stop sinking, or would it disappear through chemical reaction?
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#79718
09/18/2002 6:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
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addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
poured it out of what? how could you make it in the first place without it instantly dissolving the beaker, or what ever alchemists use for these things.
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#79719
09/18/2002 7:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
instantly dissolving the beaker
Of course, it wouldn't have to dissolve it instantly. OTOH, what would happen if you were to introduce some thiotimoline into your alkahest?
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#79721
09/18/2002 10:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well, a universal solvent would be the ultimate paradox, wouldn't it?...since it would also have to dissolve itself. But that never stopped the alchemists before..."burning metal", "turning lead into gold" (transmutation)... which leads one to believe they must have been onto something else which we can't fathom (or good drugs)...the ol' Philosopher's Stone. Unfortunately, I believe any recorded texts of their earliest work disappeared in the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Perhaps all their ensuing research was an attempt to recapture what was lost there??? Hi shona! 
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#79722
09/19/2002 10:17 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
it would also have to dissolve itself.
Naw. Think about what dissolving means and what you'd have left over after something dissolved itself.
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#79723
09/19/2002 10:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
I guess once a universal solvent had caused something to dissolve what would be left would be a solution of the solvent plus whatever had dissolved in it. So it would no longer be the universal solvent it once was.
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#79724
09/21/2002 1:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 85
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 85 |
Thanks for the welcome back. I just recently got DSL, so I'm actually able to get the posts to load within a reasonable time (instead of ten responses in a half hour, for example).
Ali
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#79726
09/21/2002 4:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
<mumble> ... chopped liver ... <grumble>
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#79727
09/21/2002 4:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247 |
Well, a universal solvent would be the ultimate paradox, wouldn't it?...since it would also have to dissolve itself.
Am I missing something here? If "alchemy" is the 'science' of turning (transmuting) lead into gold (or some other base metal into precious metal), wouldn't an "Alkahest" simply be the solvent which effectuated that particular transmutation? In other words, an "Alkahest" would be a solvent only for the metals it acted upon transmutationally. It follows that an "Alkahest" could be collected in a glass beaker, a leather pouch, or, perhaps, even a metal container which happens to be all base metal or all precious metal, but not both.
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#79728
09/21/2002 4:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2 |
chopped liver
Sorry, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!
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#79729
09/21/2002 4:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
alkahest is not directly related to alchemy per se: first used in med.L. by Paracelsus, and believed to have been arbitrarily invented by him with a form simulating Arabic. Used in the same forms in most of the European languages. so the alkahest is the universal solvent imagined by the alchemists.
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#79730
09/21/2002 4:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
"Well, a universal solvent would be the ultimate paradox, wouldn't it?...since it would also
have to dissolve itself. "
A prime proposition of alchemy was "similia similibus solvuntur". As corollary, ipsa ipsem solvitur'.
Don't bother trying to parse my Latin, it is imparsible.
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#79731
09/21/2002 7:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
it is imparsibleNice one, Dr. Bill! 
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#79732
09/21/2002 8:17 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
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#79733
09/21/2002 11:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2 |
Wow! Those are very impressive movies, maybe even scary. Is the little fella named Robbie?
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#79734
09/22/2002 11:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Is the little fella named Robbie?
More parbly, Daneel.
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#79735
09/22/2002 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 161
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 161 |
to wordminstrel:
as OED says: Alchemy - the chemistry of the Middle Ages and 16th c.; now applied distinctively to the pursuit of the transmutation of baser metals into gold
e.g. modern chemistry has its beginning in alchemy, alchemists invented basic chemical procedures such as distillation, they discovered basic chemical reactions, they managed to obtain many pure chemical elements etc. unfortunately, only a "show" part of alchemy - unsuccessful attempts to transmute metals into gold - are widely known.
so hypothetical universal solvent should not only dissolve something used for a transmutation but everything else as well.
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#79736
09/22/2002 7:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
Surely he is called ASIMO. I was interested to learn that they had deliberately made him just big enough to function in a human environment, but small enough, at 120cm, to be non-threatening.
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#79737
09/22/2002 9:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Isaac Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics
1.A robot may not injure a human being, or, through
inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2.A robot must obey the orders given it by human
beings, except where such orders would conflict
with the First Law.
3.A robot must protect its own existence, except
where such protection would conflict with the First
or Second Law.
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#79738
09/22/2002 9:56 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
And just to complete the list, wwh, here's the Zeroth Law of Robotics, expounded by the very Daneel of whom Faldage made mention:
"No robot may harm humanity or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm".
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#79739
09/23/2002 12:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Somebody plagianrized somebody.
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#79740
09/23/2002 1:38 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742 |
>Somebody plagiarised somebody.
Not at all. R. Daneel Olivaw is a central character in Asimov's "Robot and Empire" Series, and later works in his "Foundation" series. Asimov himself devised the Zeroth law, and Daneel was his mouthpiece for propagating it.
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#79741
09/23/2002 6:28 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,066 Likes: 2 |
>Somebody plagiarised somebody. -- whh Not at all. R. Daneel Olivaw is a central character in Asimov's "Robot and Empire" Series, and later works in his "Foundation" series. Asimov himself devised the Zeroth law, and Daneel was his mouthpiece for propagating it. -- sjm (Somehow I have the feeling Bill knew that) 
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#79742
09/23/2002 7:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear wofahulicodoc: my ignorance is very ;extensive. I did not read much of Asimov.
Incidentally, he spent his last few years at BUSch.of Med. Acronym is anathema.
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#79743
09/23/2002 7:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
So it would no longer be the universal solvent it once was.
Thank you, dxb...so as I said, "universal solvent" is thusly paradoxical.
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#79744
09/23/2002 7:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
thusly paradoxical
Not really. It would merely suggest that a given sample of it would not remain a universal solvent indefinitely. Water doesn't stop being a solvent just because that glass over there on the table has become saturated with salt.
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#79745
09/23/2002 8:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
And there was me thinking that an Alkahest was an engraved invitation to a beer festival ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#79746
09/23/2002 9:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
thusly paradoxical
Not really. It would merely suggest that a given sample of it would not remain a universal solvent indefinitely. Water doesn't stop being a solvent just because that glass over there on the table has become saturated with salt.Hmmm...so perhaps it's para nitical then? ("There I go again!"...just savin' ya the trouble, Faldie! )
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#79747
09/25/2002 9:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
an engraved invitation to a beer festival
Alkafest...gaaaaaaa [drool a la Homer Simpson -e]
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#79748
09/25/2002 9:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
Water doesn't stop being a solvent just because that glass over there on the table has become saturated with salt
Ah, but there could never be a glass (or any container) of alkahest "over there on the table", so there could never be saturated alkahest.
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#79749
09/25/2002 2:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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there could never be a glass (or any container) of alkahest
You trying to take over my postion as Chief Picker of Nits, ephew? If so, there's at least one person ahead of you in line. Although I must say you seem to have a better idea of what is a nit than he does.
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#79750
09/25/2002 2:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
You trying to take over my postion as Chief Picker of Nits, ephew? No fear, nunclage.  I was just sticking up for my brother-in-armlessness, Juan. 
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#79751
09/25/2002 2:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,803 |
my brother-in-armlessness, Juan.
Funny you should mention him. Mebbe you kin splain him the difference atwixt nits and typos/misspellings.
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