#77816
08/11/2002 7:54 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
#77817
08/11/2002 9:47 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
I haven't read neither the book nor the reviews, but after composing a nice long reply to AnnaS and the etc... I mistakenly erased it (grrrrr)... but I think I remember the punch line.
"...At the heart of their dispute is the question of how the tones of a musical scale should be selected."
After all of that dispute they'll come up with the answer *they knew all along - - - "By ear".
|
|
|
#77818
08/12/2002 10:45 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
By ear. Yes, Musick.
Not to write about scales per se, but:
And beauty is in the ear of the beholding culture. We've written about this before on this board, but it bears repeating:
Different western cultural orchestras tune their concert A's differently--American orchestras tune to a different A from European orchestras. And the baroque orchestras tuned to the lowest A I'm aware of.
So, there are ears and there are other ears.
I don't mind at all since I don't have perfect pitch.
|
|
|
#77819
08/13/2002 6:09 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315 |
After loosing any hope to understand anything in this thread, I am asked to add my two cents... well, I will try
I am able to play the computer indeed, but I fear that I am not able to write the sounds as in the English way.
Our "notes" are do re mi fa sol la si do. Don't remember where the intervals are simple or double, anyway from a note and the same note in the following octave( is that correct?) there are twelve such semitones.
Well, La is, for example, 440 hertz ( in basic, sound 440, 10 gives a sound "la"for 10 units of time)
The following La is 880 hertz.
In between, in the well tempered way of tuning, all the notes can be obtained in this way:
la = 440
la + one semitone = 440 times (twelveth root of two)
la + two semitones = the previous number times (twelveth root of two)
and so on.
Approximately,
(twelveth root of two) = 1.059463094359295264561825.
It is an approximation, of course, since the number is not rational = it is proven that it cannot be written exactly with a finite number of decimal digits.
|
|
|
#77820
08/13/2002 10:01 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
twelveth root of two
I love it.
la = 440
Ed. note: La is our A
This puts paid to the idea that the European concert pitch is different nor the USn's.
|
|
|
#77821
08/13/2002 10:47 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I have it on excellent authority that European orchestras tune to a 444 A, Faldage. And I have it on equally excellent authority that the baroque orchestras tuned to an A somewhat flatter than the 440. I will go back to my sources, dig 'em up, but I'm sure of this. Now perhaps in Italy the 440 A is used, and perhaps this somewhat sharper A tuning to 444 is not consistently used throughout Europe, but I'll look up sources because I've heard many a conductor mention the difference between American tuning and European tuning--and I doubt these men were in error.
But I'll see. Have been wrong before and could be again, but I doubt it this time.
|
|
|
#77822
08/13/2002 12:54 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I have it on excellent authority that European orchestras tune to a 444 A
But not in Italy?
I agree on the older lower pitch tuning. A414 sticks in my mind. From Emanuela's notes on the twelfth root of two=~1.06; 440/414 =~ 1.06 so A414 is approximately one semitone down from where we do it today. 444/440=1.0090909..., roughly a sixth of a semitone. This would be scarcely noticeable to even the most perfectly pitched ear.
|
|
|
#77823
08/13/2002 1:13 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
there are regional differences in the US as well. the Boston string players like to tune up to around 442, which drives the oboe players nuts, because it makes it hard for them to keep the whole instrument in tune... etc., etc.... my understanding of the old days is that the instruments(strings) couldn't handle the higher tension of the higher tunings, and only as instruments inproved could the higher tunings be used consistently. string players like higher tunings because it makes the instrument brighter, therefore it seems louder. tuning has oscillated throughout history...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
#77824
08/13/2002 7:04 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Pure interval?
The first time your baby really "sees" you, and smiles.
|
|
|
#77825
08/13/2002 8:02 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Our "notes" are do re mi fa sol la si do.
and our "Notes" are do re mi fa sol la ti do!
(from Do a Deer, a song from the musical "The Sound of Music" about the Von Trapp Family singers, based on Maria Von Trapps book. the word in bold is close to how we say the names of the notes.
Do, a deer, female deer doe
Re, a drop of golden sun ray
Mi, a name i call myself me
Fa, a long long way to run fa(r)-the r is not voiced
sol, a needle pulling thread sew-the l of sol is not voiced
La, a note to follow sol, la
Ti, a drink with jam and bread tea
that will bring us back to do!
|
|
|
#77826
08/13/2002 8:09 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I studied adult beginner's violin from a Chinese woman who had earned her performance masters degree from Julliard.
She consistently sang: si do; never ti do.
At first I thought I was just misunderstanding her accent, but then I asked her about it (rude little thing that I am), and she was very clear: "Si Do."
Interesting, don't you think? Every voice class I've ever taken, we used ti do. So, I don't know where the division of schools of singing has occurred or why.
|
|
|
#77827
08/13/2002 8:20 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
well is it any wonder this discussion about music seem worse than discussions about grammer? we can't even agree on the names of the notes!
we definately need some wav files somewhere -- so we can hear-- the intonations.
|
|
|
#77828
08/13/2002 10:27 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Do, a dear, female dear
Re, a drop of golden sun
No, no, no. It's:
Dough what I use to buy my beer
Ray, the guy that sells me beer
Me, the guy that drinks my beer
Far, a long way to get beer.
So, I think I'll have a beer,
La, I think I'll have a beer.
Tea, no thanks I'm drinking beer
And that brings us back to
(looks at empty beer glass)
D'oh!
From The Simpsons
|
|
|
#77829
08/13/2002 11:48 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I just sang Loftan the Simpson's Beer Song. She likes it and will sing it to her solfege teacher this year--she'll be in year two of solfeggio.
In year one, she learned a cute little solfege challenge. I offer it here for you beginning musicians:
Sing, "I'm a Little Teapot" in solfeggio. What do you notice?
|
|
|
#77830
08/14/2002 2:16 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
no " tea"! hahaha!!  very fun!
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
#77831
08/14/2002 9:59 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Yeah, etaoin! This is just the kind of lame joke that works for me everytime, juvenile sense of humor that I'm forever burdened with!
But it wouldn't work for the la-si-do camp, whoever they are. They'd need a song with no "sea" in it, I suppose.
WW
|
|
|
#77832
08/14/2002 11:16 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The scale was originally ut re mi fa sol la si ut. It's from the initial syllables of the lines of a chant that I have on CD. The tones for each of the syllables go up scale. All I can remember off hand is
Ut queant laxis
Resonare fibris
Miserere nobis
Famili tuorum
but that might be filled with errors. I'll check tonight and give y'all the straight skinny.
|
|
|
#77833
08/14/2002 1:13 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
And if you're a real sweetie, Faldage, you'll translate for us less-than-Latin-learneds, ok? It'll also be interesting to see whether there's wiggle room in that ti v. si choice...
|
|
|
#77834
08/14/2002 1:21 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
if you're a real sweetie, Faldage
That's one mighty big if there Dub' Dub. Well, just cuz it's you I'll make some effort at translation when I manage to find the CD that I have the original chant on. Or either they'll have a translation in the liner notes and you can have a good translation.
|
|
|
#77835
08/14/2002 5:13 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Boy did *I screw it up:
UT queant laxis REsonare fibris
MIra gestorum
FAmuli tuorum,
SOLve polluti LAbii reatum, Sancte Ioannes.
|
|
|
#77836
08/14/2002 11:04 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Ok, Faldage, you found the right text, I take it. So, even though you're not really a sweetie (though I know you really are!), please translate the passage for those of us who don't speak Latin.
And a great big Harrumph!!!... to get you goin!
For Pogo's sake,
WW
|
|
|
#77837
08/15/2002 9:58 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I found the CD. I did web research yestiddy.
A) The good news is they have a translation in the booklet with the CD. The bad news is it's in French. I'll be better off translating the Latin. Or either I could transcribe the French in here and get one of y'all to do the dirty work for me.
2) The whole ut re mi thang came from the fevered brain of an Italian monk in the 11th century. Apparently he wrote the words and/or music for the purpose of coming up with the scale note names. But. He only took it as far as la. This is where I start getting confused. Some German dude in the 16th century decided that ut was too hard to sing so he changed it to do. And. In one version of the story he changed si to ti and in another version he added the si/ti.
So there you have it.
|
|
|
#77838
08/15/2002 12:57 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
ah, good ol' Guido of Arezzo! rough translation(from Grout): That thy servants may sing freely forth the wonders of thy deeds, remove all stains of guilt from their unclean lips, O Saint Johna happy little text... search for "Guidonian hand", and you should find more than you want. 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
#77839
08/15/2002 1:14 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
|
|
|
#77840
08/15/2002 1:31 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Let me get this straight: is Guido the fevered Italian monk? And what's 'Grout'? This is a fascinating thread, one of the best discussions we've had in a looooong time! 
|
|
|
#77841
08/15/2002 1:37 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Guido would be the monk, and Grout is a venerable music textbook: A History of Western Music, written by Donald Jay Grout.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
#77842
08/29/2002 9:42 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
So, there are ears and there are other ears.
I don't mind at all since I don't have perfect pitch.
Me neither, WW - but I reckon we all respond to the most subtle differences nonetheless. I think it was eta (earlier in this thread) who talked about how our entire bodies resonate to music. We aren't limited to what our ears and brains can detect.
I think artful imperfection (knowing when not to follow rules) is the essence of music. "Perfect"/law abiding intervals and harmonies fail to move us in the same way as more natural/imperfect sounds. You have to be inventive to make digital sounds work on their own.
On that front, can anyone tell me why CD reproductions of analog recordings invariably sound flat and lifeless until they're remastered by someone who knows their stuff? And what does that remastering involve?
|
|
|
#77843
08/31/2002 1:22 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
The difference between digital and analogue reproduction lies in the peaks and troughs of the sound waves. If you just take an analogue tape and transcribe it "as-is" to a digital medium, the highs and lows are "clipped" which takes a good deal of the life out of the recording - it makes each sound rather disjointed, almost as if there is a pause in the middle of each sound.
Competent remastering involves packing all of the sounds fromt the analogue source within the usable range of the digital medium, a kind of compression of the sound. It restores the continuity, although it still leaves the digital recording sounding somewhat flatter than the analogue. Go and compare your favourite LP with a remastered CD of the same music. It will still sound like rubbish in comparison.
I read a brief description of how it's done ages ago, and this explanation comes from that. The technical hoopla involved is beyond my ken!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#77844
08/31/2002 11:41 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
It will still sound like rubbish in comparison.
Which is the very reason you can still find high end turntables in electronics stores catering to the true audiophile.
|
|
|
#77845
08/31/2002 4:17 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Hell, that's just like you, Faldo. NAD, NAD, NAD, NAD, all day long!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#77846
09/01/2002 5:03 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
...And what's 'Grout'?
That's the stuffing they put in between two pieces of music to make them resonate on the same plane.
------------
...hoopla involved is beyond my ken
there's a 'barbie' joke in there... somewhere... TEd???
-------------
Although most cannot distiguish much over 15,000 hz, sounds in this spectrum add an ambiance to music that just ain't there with 16 bit sampling rates. This effect is very clear when reproducing the sound of a piano, and even more striking when recording cymbals... both of which gain lots of lively 'roundness' up there.
-------------
Not to be a pain in the ears, but...
We aren't limited to what our ears and brains can detect.
... certainly, to what we can interpret with *them!?!?
|
|
|
|
|
