#76563
08/12/2002 1:27 AM
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40 to 400 million? billion?...don't be surprised...if the figure seems too flamboyant, then reduce it, by all means...but no creedence need be given...it's a documented fact.http://kings.edu/~twsawyer/frankly/SS1.htmlhttp://www.charm.net/~marc/chronicle/media_dec98.htmlhttp://www.motherjones.com/news_wire/bushboys.htmlhttp://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO202C.htmlOh, and ENRON's Cliff Baxter didn't work within the government, TEd, he was a private businessman...but, then again, if what you're saying is that ENRON is the government, well, then, maybe you've got something there.
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#76564
08/12/2002 1:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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During my absence Ted wrote:
You can look away and say that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, friendly folk, and that they obviously do not pose a threat to you. In the long run you will be annihilated by these radicals if you do not resist them. There is no middle ground on this. None.
I sense that you don't believe that such a thing can actually happen. Not too far back in history far too many Jews, Roms, homosexuals, et alia, all believed that the Nazis couldn't REALLY be so inhumane as to murder them and use their bodies for diabolical medical experiments.
Ted, I think the great threat to positive developments in the current world predicament comes from *both sides of this fundamentalist clash. And the side that worries me the most isn't that of the extremists Muslims - it's that of the U.S. industro-military government. For they have the most power. They have all the balls [sic] in their court. Sure, I could look away and say that the majority of Americans are peaceful, friendly folk, and that they obviously do not pose a threat to me. In the long run though, they might threaten to play a key role in annihilating mankind's chance at positive development by allowing these few radicals bearing a handful of vested interests to rule. Ignore this at your own peril, world.[g]
I jest slightly, but seen in this light, one must assume that if Ted and Rous. were Muslims, say in Palestine, they would fully approve of, if not applaud the WTC terrorist attacks of last year and others like them. Odd to think of it that way, isn’t it?
As to your question of what I would do if extremists Muslims attacked 'my' country.
I’m not much for hypotheticals really, especially when sitting in a country with a decent size Muslim population. I certainly wouldn’t be fighting along side other Muslim Germans against the ‘great evil’ that is Islam. Nobody is going to talk me into war! ‘Oh, but what if’….? – What if what! This is not 1939, ‘my’ country is not being attacked, nor ‘my’ ‘civilisation’. Mindless military exponents should fly their flags and die for their flags – but I’ll live without one, thanks, I don't have a country and I think little of 'countries', per se. Let's be honest, the whole concept is dreadfully outdated. Hang on to it if you must, like biologists cling to that fouling Darwinist dogma as if sent from heaven, but it's getting us nowhere.
The truth is that my continual displacement in life has made me more conscious of that which I'm not, than that which I am. I see any violence as an attack on us all, because I can’t pretend to be a certain something I’m not. I couldn’t honestly describe myself as German or Australian, or British or European, even if I wanted to. My positive feeling of personal identity comes from the diversity I've experienced not the habitual traditions, rituals, and conventions. I have, as such, been forced to relearn things over and over again; customs, conversation and social conventions. I've been forced to realise how completely arbitrary these things are. Class, race, religion and the like are all just a thin facade behind which we are all exceedingly similar. Clearly you and those extremist Muslims are too, Ted! Both factions here are underpinned by the same types of misconceptions, misunderstandings and prejudice.
Constantly underlining our differences in order to feel special and build our egos is temps perdi. After playing so many parts - trying to mimic that which is expected of me, I have, like many, had the chance to be able, to some extent, collapse all that shite in on itself. The more each of us strives for this the better off we’ll be, I’m sure. We are all no doubt indelibly marked by that which we've seen, the 'culture' that defines us, but surely we should have, or rather want desperately to have a certain anticipation of that which we'll never see – and feel all sides – sense our wholeness.
I'm a bit loopy though, so don't mind me. I mean, I want to radically revalue the normative value of race and division in writing, and history, for myself. I want to wend my way back down the ladder of genetic memory and sense the unbroken chain of life that has led us here. I want to return to the source; centre myself; find divinity and hope; and raise the dead – not create them.
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#76565
08/12/2002 1:59 PM
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WON:
As soon as I saw the Mother Jones link I knew where this was going. Not a bit of this is documentation. It's innuendo, supposition, saying since A is B and B is C, then A is D, outright lies, etc., etc.
It's stuff like this that brings grave discredit upon the good data that's out there on the internet for all to use for constructive purposes.
When I said what I said about Bush as the former head of the CIA, it was to imply that such things as the disappearance or murder of people like Baxter would not and could not happen via the CIA. People who believe otherwise don't understand the CIA. It's made up of ordinary people doing some perhaps not-so-ordinary jobs; trying to get them to take out a fellow American just because the DCI orders them to do so will not work. If you believe otherwise I suggest that it may be because you've been reading too many spy novels and too many of the sort of web sites as those you cited above as "documented fact."
Baxter's death was a suicide. You can find his suicide note out on the web if you search for it. His family has accepted his death as a suicide, so why shouldn't we?
I read the article Helen cites above from the NYT, and recommend it very highly to you. And one last thought: can you name one, just ONE, theory put forth by one of these people that has been proven to be in fact true?
Let's see, examples of conspiracies that float around pretty freely:
Marilyn Monroe was killed by the CIA. Or was it the FBI? Or did Bobby Kennedy do her in personally? There are so many theories.
JFK was killed by Castro. Or the Mafia. Or the FBI. Or the CIA. Ditto for his brother Robert.
Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons.
Aliens landed at Roswell, NM and their bodies are preserved in alcohol at Area 39 or whatever the heck the number was.
Cliff Baxter was murdered by someone. That someone dictated a suicide note and got him to sign it before killing him.
John Paul I was murdered in his bed by some cardinals who thought he would take the Roman Church in the wrong direction.
Princess Diana was killed on the orders of someone or other because QE II did not want her half-breed baby (she WAS pregnant, wasn't she?) to be half-brother to the eventual King of England.
This is all TRIPE. Utter tripe. As are all of these conspiracy theories. Wouldn't you think that with all of the people trying to prove one of these conspiracies that they could find one they could prove?
TEd
TEd
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#76566
08/12/2002 2:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 131
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<<The Electoral college result gave Dubya 50.4655493482309% of the EC votes, so you're 0 for 2 in the matter of factual accuracy.>> Details, details. Wonder what the outcome would've been if you took out all the dead democrats that voted?? 
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#76567
08/12/2002 2:57 PM
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dead democrats
What amused me was the report that if the Republican recount scheme had been followed Gore would have won and if the Democratic one had been used it would have still gone to Bush.
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#76568
08/12/2002 3:10 PM
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It would certainly prove that you were pretty damned hard up for a date!
TEd
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#76569
08/12/2002 9:56 PM
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I'm sorry, TEd, but these Bush business "dealings" are all factual events, including the Silverado S & L scandal and the Harken Energy "question"...here's a site with no less than 19 links to articles in solid journalistic sources including The LA Times, The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, US News & World Report, Time, Newsweek, The Boston Globe, and other such "trite" publications, that cover and confirm these events: http://www.campaignwatch.org/details.htmAnd I don't know why you insist on linking the assasination of President Kennedy with all these other leaps of sensationalistic speculation, as if it has anything to do with all the others. I think that anyone at this point who really believed Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone is either very naive, very foolish, or very gullible...the impact and gravity of JFK's murder had, of course, a far graver impact and affect on our country, our lives, and the world, than any of the other episodes on your list (with Bobby's death placing a close, but much less intense, second). The murder of a sitting President makes the others look incidental in comparison. Even Gov. Connolly's wife, in a recent interview, insisted that the same bullet that hit her husband could not possibly have also hit JFK and she was in the car. Anyone who views the Zapruder film and and still thinks that headshot came from behind has to be, well, an idiot, IMHO. And, Baxter, yes...the extreme "coincidence" of his untimely demise is worthy of further investigation. There were credible media (print and broadcast) follow-up reports about lapses and discrepancies in the way the case was handled by the police, the medical examiner, and others. He was about to turn government witness in the ENRON investigation, and was too important a figure to dismiss his death out of hand as simple suicide when our government is currently peopled by ENRON cronies and associates. Far too convenient, and there's far too much at stake.
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#76570
08/13/2002 6:40 AM
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If anyone remains in any doubt about JFK's assassination, I strongly suggest you spend an hour in the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas. You will leave in no doubt about what didn't happen ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#76571
08/13/2002 1:41 PM
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WON:
Why is it that people run to ad hominem statements like "Why don't you come to your senses?" rather than merely talking about the issues? Just because we may disagree is no reason to attempt to belittle me.
I DO know about the Bush "business dealings" over the years. I knew about each of the 19 items that was in the article you posted the URL for. I spend a whole lot of time studying current events, particularly politics. Lord knows I do not defend Bush and the little Shrub, but if you are going to post things about them please stick to the facts. Accusing the Bushes of robbing almost half a trillion dollars is reckless at best. Quoting Mother Jones as a source isn't too far off from being reckless either. Definitely the Bush family has played funny games and has played fast and loose with the truth, but the numbers certainly don’t total up to anywhere near the $400 billion you blithely threw out as truth. If I had my way they would all be run out of town on a rail, but that’s not gonna happen. The best we can do is try to make certain that the two Bushes have similar reelection failures. A rejection of Jr in 2004 would be as effective as a criminal indictment, at least from a historical perspective.
You seem to be reading some things into my statement that weren't there. I listed a bunch of conspiracy theories and asked why no one had ever been able to prove one, just one of them. I mentioned JFK's assassination and you inferred solely from my having raised that it that I was “very naive, very foolish, or very gullible.” Did I say that Oswald acted alone? Did I imply that I disbelieved the conspiracy theories? Nope. All I did was ask a question. And I didn’t get an answer.
I've stated here repeatedly that it's my firm belief that our Government does not do things like offing Cliff Baxter. Why? Because we can't do it and then cover it up successfully. How many people do you think would have to be involved to cover up the alleged murder of an Enron executive on behalf of the President of the Unites States? How long would it be before one, just one of those people, decided that he needed more money or had a falling out with one of the other principles and turned on him? No President is going to take that kind of risk. They want a positive place in history and are not about to go around ordering (or even condoning) murders for any reason, let alone for political reasons. And the people who work for the President won’t act either, because they can never be certain who’s going to turn on them.
Frankly, it's probably pretty much the same thing with JFK's murder. If Oswald was acting at the behest of an agency of the US Government, do you seriously believe that someone, somewhere, in the conspiracy would not have breathed a word of it some time in the last 39 years? And it would take at a minimum a dozen people to bring off something like that in my opinion. It’s much more likely that the conspiracy involved people in places we can’t reach to get answers: Cuba comes immediately to mind.
I renew my challenge: show me the money. Find me one incident perpetrated by our Government in secrecy the truth of which was revealed by independent investigation.
TEd
Look at Watergate. It took about five minutes after those idiots put the tape on the door latch for the whole thing to start unraveling. Too many people involved. Too many people interested in revealing the truth. And even the awesome power of the presidency could do nothing more than delaying the day of reckoning.
The very fact that no one has proved a US Government conspiracy in any of the myriad other "mysteries" is to me a pretty good indication that there are no conspiracies.
TEd
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#76572
08/13/2002 1:47 PM
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there are no conspiracies
There are no conspiracies? There are no conspiracies?? What fun is that, if there are no conspiracies?
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#76573
08/13/2002 2:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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BY:
You said:
I'm a bit loopy though, so don't mind me. I mean, I want to radically revalue the normative value of race and division in writing, and history, for myself. I want to wend my way back down the ladder of genetic memory and sense the unbroken chain of life that has led us here. I want to return to the source; centre myself; find divinity and hope; and raise the dead – not create them.
As to the first sentence, I guess I have to agree with you. As to the rest of this paragraph, frankly, it's in English but I am unable to make any sense out of it.
One last word, BY, and then I am going to stop this senseless undialogue in which I speak English and you speak some unintelligible language that masquerades as
English:
I resent bitterly your statement that I would under any circumstances applaud the attacks on the World Trade Center. Your statement goes far beyond decency. And if you had any of it I would expect you to withdraw what you said and apologize to me. But I doubt that you have any decency.
TEd
TEd
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#76574
08/13/2002 2:22 PM
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TEd, firstly, "Silverado/Why don't you come to your senses?" was a whimsical parody of the Eagles' song "Desperado," alluding to Silverado having been swept under the carpet and forgotten, and that folks, in general, should open their eyes to the "business" doings of the Bushes. It was in no way an attempt of any kind at personal belittlement, and I apologize if it sounded that way.
Ditto the "naive, foolish, and gullible" comment referring to the Zapruder film clip...I still stand by that statement, that anyone, in the generic sense, who views the Zapruder film and still believes the head shot came from the rear as per the Warren Commission, and that Oswald acted alone, has to possess one, or all, of the three named qualities. That was not, however, a comment directed to you, personally, TEd, or about your beliefs or theories about JFK's assassination. That's why I added the "IMHO" at the end. I still remember, as clear as day, the first time they aired the film. I was viewing it with people of mixed political backgrounds, and the moment we saw that shot hit his head there was a joint sigh of relief and immediate consensus that "well, there it is...now we know there was another shot from the front and more than one shooter. Maybe now we'll find out what really happened." But, then, the "powers that be" announced they had to do a "thorough" investigation of the film, eventually offering the absurd physics-defying "conclusion" that the obvious shot-in-question also came from the rear, and that the impact made it look like he was hit from the front...please. (not a personally directed please). But I was personally insulted and infuriated, even at that young age, that I was being played for such a fool. If the government wasn't involved in the shooting, they were certainly involved in the cover-up.
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#76575
08/13/2002 2:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
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In reply to:
I'm a bit loopy though, so don't mind me. I mean, I want to radically revalue the normative value of race and division in writing, and history, for myself. I want to wend my way back down the ladder of genetic memory and sense the unbroken chain of life that has led us here. I want to return to the source; centre myself; find divinity and hope; and raise the dead – not create them.
I think what BY is saying, rather poetically, I think, is that we are all one, and he wishes for us to remember that and return to that as a way of life. we need to work at erasing all the barriers that time has erected...
formerly known as etaoin...
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#76576
08/13/2002 6:03 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Oh, I doubt you are correct about government conspiracies, Ted. I'm not pointing at the US government in particular here, just governments in general. They all conspire. Maybe not very competently, but they conspire.
And then a really good conspiracy can be hidden within a less well hidden one. Not everyone in government is a dumb flunky. Some of them can think and plot. I'm sure that some of them are capable of constructing a conspiracy that would work. Often, I would imagine, the trick is to know what the desired outcome is - it may not be the obvious one.
FWIW
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#76577
08/13/2002 9:24 PM
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And then a really good conspiracy can be hidden within a less well hidden one.
You are right, CK. [shiver]
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#76578
08/13/2002 10:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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a really good conspiracy can be hidden within a less well hidden one
A successful conspiracy disguised as an unsuccessful conspiracy. Brilliant.
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#76579
08/13/2002 10:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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>And then a really good conspiracy can be hidden within a less well hidden one.
Spooky, Mulder.
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#76580
08/14/2002 1:33 AM
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A successful conspiracy disguised as an unsuccessful conspiracy
No, not disguised as. Hidden within. Not the same thing at all. Signed, Scully.
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#76581
08/14/2002 11:02 AM
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Hidden within/disguised as
And y'all accuse *me of being a pedantic nit picker.
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#76582
08/14/2002 12:39 PM
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Hidden within/disguised as
And y'all accuse *me of being a pedantic nit picker.Or would that be The Cigarette Smoking Man...hmmm? Or, perhaps, you're a nit-picking hybrid? 
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#76583
08/14/2002 3:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Conspiracy theories are all good fun, but any one who has worked for a large organisation will know how difficult they must be to implement. The guy(s) at the top may, just possibly, have a clear idea of what they want to achieve, but by the time the message reaches the execution layer in the business it has been warped by private agendas and the Chinese Whispers effect so that the result is usually some way away from what was intended. When I hear “The oil companies are running things” my reaction is “They wish!”. I'm sure they try, just like governments do, but I doubt if either one is often successful! A plan can only be kept on track by constant nurturing and attention and that tends to destroy the conspiratorial nature of it and bring things out into the open.
dxb
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#76584
08/15/2002 4:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
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I wonder weather this thread will ever die out or it’ll go forever. I can imagine our descendants discussing - was there an attack on the World Trade Centre or it’s just a legend like Icarus’ fall from the skies?
The bad thing about it that the more I read this the less I like what people like belligerentyouth say although I supported his (?) posts in the beginning because it became propaganda plus occasional personal insults.
I still disagree with TEd but I’d like to applaud to his valiant struggle against the majority.
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#76585
08/16/2002 2:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
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> the less I like what people like belligerentyouth say
Right! I don't like what I've said either in fact. It's all crap really - it isn't even real English I'm told, and it's completely unrepresentative of my true thoughts to boot. It's a bunch of bollocks really, because it is all just infantile symbols, conceived by neanderthal males, and thrown out onto a virtual page. And this war I've waged against myself here in the stuff I wrote above gets me and others nowhere - I'm just dreaming, you see. I actually loathe myself and humanity, and threads like this just fed the contept I really harbour against myself and all others. Besides, I actually support conflict, and why should conflict of a violent and physical nature not be helpful in propelling humanity forward towards something better? Surely every event has a positive outcome regardless of whether it is a negative act or not. And a passion for destruction is also a creative passion. So let's go to war - as soon as I find a suitable foe I'm loading up. I'm getting a warm tingly feeling already - what a way to go out: in a blaze of glory. It's all the natural way anyway; it's the way of the world; we are all just selfish beings, constantly enslaving ourselves and others. And as for terrorism, well, it's nothing other than the surgical strike capability of the oppressed.
[off to a training camp]
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#76586
08/16/2002 4:20 PM
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I don't think this is an appropriate thread for linguaphiles; which I why I don't read it (just scrolled down to the bottom, on page 2, and made a coffee while waiting). It might be polite, however, to re-start it, as tsuwm has indicated, for those who still wish to follow it.
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#76587
08/16/2002 9:14 PM
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J'accuse!
Now, where did I see that before?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#76588
08/16/2002 9:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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Destruction is the easy route. It really is. Turn genius toward destruction: that's the easy way.
Now: Try to love...try to bring out peace...try to encourage...try to make people believe in their capacity to love, to bring out peace, to encourage...those are harder things. Try to teach tolerance...try to understand...try to be a slave to peace...well, that's a harder route, but a truer one, because it means you have to sacrifice your time so that others might have a chance to enjoy more breaths they take. There are times for belligerence--for fighting the fight--but how best to bring about peace? That's the hard thing, but, in my view, the necessary one. Some people just don't want peace. They need a foe. They need a bad guy. They need destruction. But what about love and caring and hoping that people will have more opportunities to embrace the brief lives they've been given? I don't see any good in bombing people--in hurting them--in causing pain. I'm embarrassed that I even voted for Bush (I felt I had no choice) because he has now wanted to destroy without just cause. No, I don't believe bombing belligerence is what will work for the good of the whole. Take a look at that old classic "Wild Stawberries"--and be drawn in again to a vision of what we could have had...
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#76589
08/16/2002 10:05 PM
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>>Some people just don't want peace. They need a foe. They need a bad guy. They need destruction.
Too bad when it's the guy who calls the shots. Literally, in this case ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#76590
08/17/2002 6:56 PM
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BY, fess up now, you're a "Shadow", aincha? Or perhaps a Vorlon counter-spy?
(See Babylon 5 on your local television outlets)
Everytime someone talks about going out and opening a can of whoop ass on "them" I cannot help but wonder which "Them" the combatant-one is planning to whup.
And who will take the place of them.
We already know who.
And who gave anyone the right to decide what's best for us?
It's us against Them , or is it a Pogo?
"We have met the enemy and he is us." "Pogo"© by Walt Kelly.
The phrase New Order sends icy shivers down my back.
I think I'll start another place for this.
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