#76307
07/22/2002 2:43 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Good shot there, TEd. I'm sure I have heard a Yiddish word for what we're looking for, but it isn't coming to me. Need to consult some Yiddish dictionaries or phrase-books. The only English words that come to mind are 'party pooper', 'spoilsport' and 'marfeast', none of which is really it.
In my youth, someone who was always stirring up trouble just for the fun of it was called an 'agitator', but this implies some degree of maleficence, although some agitators I have known did it as a sort of practical joke, like a lot of practical jokesters who have no common sense and really hurt people.
|
|
|
#76308
07/22/2002 8:08 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
I bin all thru that damn Dictionary of Classical, Biblical, and Literary Allusions, with no successWell, Bravo for trying, MG - and commiserations..  Maybe we're all imagining there is a term, just because there so clearly should be?
|
|
|
#76309
07/22/2002 1:05 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
|
|
|
#76310
07/22/2002 1:31 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
I'm sure I have heard a Yiddish word for what we're looking for..."Nebbish" sprang instantly to mind, but I looked it up and it means "a timid or ineffectual person." Back to the drawing board....  Any Yiddish speakers here able to help out? seems a likely source for such a word! (rich language an' all) I keep thinking, though, that it may well be a classical or literary allusion (probably not Biblical). Maybe I should have another go through that dictionary (shudder!). Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.
|
|
|
#76311
07/23/2002 12:38 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
Well, our friend who started the thread hasn't made any further comments so either he is completely unhappy with the results - or ... well in fact, that's probably it, isn't it.
Let me say that a lot of contenders I looked at for this word - which clearly should exist - are colloquial. As such, they can be interpreted in many ways, and don’t have the distinct meaning that was seemingly desired. One example of this is a ‘booby’. This word certainly fits the meaning but might be thought to mean a myriad of other things too.
Finally, let me say the German hasn’t failed me on this one, with the not entirely unambiguous, but none the less very useful word – der Tölpel – it beats English hands down. What do dictionaries (our Holy Grail – yeah right!) offer for this in English? You’re not going to like this – it’s one of those ‘there is no word for this really, so we’ll include a lot of them’ kind of things. Here is a list of *my over all favourite candidates in an attempt to wrap things up:
Baboon
Booby
Klutz
Dolt
Chawbacon
Bungler
Gawk
Jay
Looby
Lubber
Muff
Yokel
Fool
Larrikin
If you can’t find one in there you like and want to use then we’d better get started on a neologism. PONS – an authority on the German language, has a competition every year to find new words for things and concepts that don’t exist. Surely there something is similar for our poor impecunious English language floating about.
Regards,
baboonedyouth
|
|
|
#76312
07/23/2002 1:14 PM
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
> Can you help me with a word? This a noun for someone who
> innocently joins a group, comes to a party, sits at a
> meeting--whatever--and within minutes has everyone at each other's
> throats. It may be based on a mythical beast or malevolent force.
> The effect is pernicious, malefic, and usually completely innocent on
> the part of the individual who usually sees him- or herself as only
> trying to be 'helpful' and frequently comes out of the situation
> feeling hurt or unappreciated.
A Frank Spencer?
|
|
|
#76313
07/23/2002 1:45 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Gosh, zingo, bellyoungone! Chawbacon was worth reading this whole thread again even though I don't reckon a chawbacon is the socially destructive person sought. That chawbacon just sits on a stump in my brain, chawin' bacon with his mouth open, gazin' at the risin' sun, thinkin' deep thoughts like, "This here's dam good bacon" over and over to the rhythm of his jaws.
Life is good and sweet for chawbacons. You git up, you chaw your bacon, you sit on stumps, think deep bacon-flavored thoughts, you shoot a possum, you drink moonshine, and you pass out cold till the next morning.
Thanks for that little bite of simplicity, bellyouth.
Bacon regards,
WoodsWanderer
|
|
|
#76314
07/23/2002 6:40 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
a competition every year to find new words for things and concepts that don’t exist
[innocent e]
Why would you want to make up words for nonexistent things and concepts? How many different terms does one need?
|
|
|
#76315
07/24/2002 2:40 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055 |
> Why would you want to make up words for nonexistent things and concepts? How many different terms does one need?
There's always one, isn't there!?
Let me restate that:
"PONS has a competition every year to find words for things and concepts that have not yet been labelled."
Happy now?
Rubrick, a "Frank Spencer" is exactly the kind of bloke I was trying to think of but couldn't.
I'm sure that if you said, 'He is a real Frank Spencer!', to pretty much anyone over 20 in England, Oz and NZ then they would know straight away what you're talking about. He's the theatrical epitome of the kind of person we've been discussing, no doubt. Well done my son! You've got my vote for that eponym!
|
|
|
#76316
07/24/2002 2:42 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Someone care to enlighten poor benighted USns?
|
|
|
#76317
07/24/2002 11:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477 |
Frank Spencer (played by Michael Crawford) was the main character in the BBC production "Some mothers do 'ave em", as the bumbling eejit who just couldn't ever seem to get anything right.  Here's an episode synopsis for you: http://www.steve-p.org/sm/SMDAE1.htmHTH
|
|
|
#76318
07/25/2002 8:11 AM
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679 |
Rubrick, a "Frank Spencer" is exactly the kind of bloke I was trying to think of but couldn't.
I'm sure that if you said, 'He is a real Frank Spencer!', to pretty much anyone over 20 in England, Oz and NZ then
they would know straight away what you're talking about. He's the theatrical epitome of the kind of person we've
been discussing, no doubt. Well done my son! You've got my vote for that eponym!
Thanks, BY. It was wracking my brains for days....
|
|
|
#76319
07/25/2002 12:53 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
You git up, you chaw your bacon, you sit on stumps, think deep bacon-flavored thoughts, you shoot a possum, you drink moonshine, and you pass out cold till the next morning[sigh] Heaven. [longing-e] Frank SpencerHmmm - closest yet, Rube Still not exactly right, as Frank Spencer wasn't just socially destructive with his good intentions (there was usually a great deal of physical destruction). But it'll do for me - this has been driving me mad!
|
|
|
#76320
07/25/2002 12:57 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,070 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,070 Likes: 2 |
...someone who innocently joins a group, comes to a party, sits at a meeting--whatever--and within minutes has everyone at each other's throats
...Any Yiddish speakers here able to help out? seems a likely source for such a word!
I can think of two words that come near but don't quite hit the mark:
-- A dybbik is an evil spirit that inhabits someone's body for a time and does all sorts of mean and nasty things in his/her name, sometimes without being recognized for what it is except for the out-of-character nature of the mean acts. I believe it's Hebrew rather than Yiddish.
-- A kuchleffel (spelling will vary), literally a big cooking spoon, goes around disturbing the status quo ante (cross-thread) and often causing trouble, just because that's what cooking spoons do - stir up the pot and keep things boiling.
Maybe "kuchleffel" is the closest to the orignal query, though it doesn't quite catch the inevitablity of the strife, or perhaps the degree of disruption, either.
|
|
|
#76321
07/26/2002 5:52 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5 |
How about "provocateur" ... though not necessarily of the "agent" variety?
One whose existence facilitates others getting into trouble.
|
|
|
#76322
07/26/2002 6:16 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Some wonderful ideas especially the last one - WELCOME Eyes I Knew -- But help me out here, isn't the described behaviour what is called "passive aggressive?"
Been a long time since my Psych 101 class (1948 precisely!)
Thanks.
Oh! how about "agitant" - a person who causes agitation. (OED)
|
|
|
#76323
07/30/2002 4:03 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Though if yomintz will ever see this, I don't know. This is at the beginning of a book a friend suggested I read : "Snow Crash", by Neal Stephenson. (FWIW, it looks as though the book's going to have more social commentary in it than story, but we shall see; I've barely started.) Anyway, on the top of the page where Chapter 1 begins are three dictionary definitions. It's the 3rd one, third def. that is of import here : VIRUS....[L. virus slimy liquid, poison, offensive odour or taste.] 1. Venom, such as is emitted by a poisonous animal. 2. Path: a. A morbid principle or poisonous substance produced in the body as the result of some disease, esp. one capable of being introduced into other persons or animals by inoculations or otherwise and of developing the same disease in them... 3. fig A moral or intellectual poison, or poisonous influence. --- The Oxford English Dictionary
|
|
|
#76324
07/30/2002 6:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
Snow Crash had some story, but it was a bit hokey. Ctyptonomicon, by the same author, is a much more thoughtful, involving book with a far more compelling set of story lines (WWII and modern day), and some very cool discussion of codes and cryptography.
|
|
|
#76325
07/30/2002 6:51 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I love that book, Hyla, and your cryptic rendering of its title. 
|
|
|
#76326
07/30/2002 8:25 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I agree with wow. "Passive aggressive" describes the behavior of someone on the sidelines fomenting disturbances.
I also like the 3rd meaning of "virus" that Jackie posted.
Not as good, but in the general category--and certainly one who could manifest negative behaviors either passively or aggressively--is the spoilsport. Have we mentioned the spoilsport yet in this thread? It's not really what we're looking for, but I think it at least belongs in the discussion to be thrown away as, "No, that's not it at all!"
But passive aggressive? Yes, that's the behavior, by jingo! A passive aggressive virus! And there's no vaccine for viruses, right, Dr. Bill?
|
|
|
#76327
07/30/2002 10:05 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
your cryptic rendering of its title.I looked and looked at that word to be sure it was spelled right.  But in the end, I did misspell Stypticonimon, a fascinating history of after-shave treatments.
|
|
|
#76328
07/31/2002 12:47 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Stypticonimon, a fascinating history of after-shave treatments.Ohmigawd--rolling!  Hope you use electric!
|
|
|
#76329
07/31/2002 10:45 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 508 |
And there's no vaccine for viruses, rightNot zactly, WW. There are vaccines for some viruses, just not for all viruses. In fact, vaccines are made from viruses. IIR, there are live-virus vaccines, which use a weakened strain of the virus to cause the body to produce antibodies, and killed-virus vaccines, which use dead viruses to do the same. You may be thinking of the fact that there are no antibiotics for viruses. None of the so-called wonder drugs are effective against viruses, which is why we shouldn't insist the doctor give us something for a bad cold - doesn't do any good and contributes to the development of antibiotic-resistant organisms. [/my medical knowledge]
|
|
|
#76330
08/01/2002 5:31 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Thanks, NancyK, for my little medical lesson. I stand corrected and welcomingly so! You read me perfectly--I had heard that you shouldn't ask for an anti-biotic for viruses, and I made the incorrect leap to include vaccines also.
Live and learn,
WW
|
|
|
#76331
08/01/2002 9:14 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
Every time I come back to this thread I think the word we are looking for is pariah. Now, I know full well that the dictionary definition of this word is simply "outcast", but get a nagging feeling I've seen it used to mean exactly what we're trying to track down: someone who is unwelcome because of an unconscious tendency to create social disorder.
Does anyone else share this feeling?
|
|
|
#76332
08/01/2002 1:19 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I'm not sure, Shona, but here's what Atomica has to say:
pa·ri·ah (pə-rī'ə)
n.
1. A social outcast: “Shortly Tom came upon the juvenile pariah of the village, Huckleberry Finn, son of the town drunkard” (Mark Twain).
2. An Untouchable.
[Tamil paṛaiyar, pl. of paṛaiyan, pariah caste, from paṛai, festival drum.]
WORD HISTORY The word pariah, which can be used for anyone who is a social outcast, independent of social position, recalls a much more rigid social system, which made only certain people pariahs. The caste system of India placed pariahs, also known as Untouchables, very low in society. The word pariah, which we have extended in meaning, came into English from Tamil paṛaiyar, the plural of paṛaiyan, the caste name, which literally means “(hereditary) drummer” and comes from the word paṛai, the name of a drum used at certain festivals. The word is first recorded in English in 1613. Its use in English and its extension in meaning probably owe much to the long period of British rule in India.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
|
|
|
|
|
