#76167
07/15/2002 7:36 PM
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Speaking with a friend about the evolution of language when she cited theis example: She is sewing an authentic Native American outfit for a traditional wedding ceremony. Part of the man's outfit is what she referred to as a loin cloth. Her daughter and her NA husband refer to the same article of clothing as a breech cloth, while a young (15) woman who lives on the reservation calls it a butt flap. Generational difference?
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#76168
07/15/2002 7:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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old hand
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old hand
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> butt flap
LOL! I thought this referred to the opening in one of those really old fashioned, full body undergarments which can be unbuttoned when one needs to visit the outhouse/loo/WC.
Loincloth, breechcloth, and even breechclout seem to all refer to the same kind of modest covering for one's private area. As far as I know these cover virtually nothing round the backside - thus 'back/butt flap' or the like is pretty ironic.
A modern term for the loincloth might be a g-string of course, although these seem to be only very narrow version thereof. Not that I have any personal experience in the field!
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#76169
07/15/2002 8:04 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I have nothing to add, Nancy, but thanks for the new words. Never heard of a breechcloth nor of a butt flap. Have heard of a loincloth, of course, as probably everybody has. Breeches, yes; breechcloth, no. And definitely not breechclout! Breechclout sounds like very fancy threads meant to impress! And I suppose the breechclout could!
All in the spirit of increasing vocabularly,
WW
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#76170
07/15/2002 8:24 PM
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There are quite a few sites that discuss this article of clothing. "Breech cloth" was used
most often, but "Breech clout is probably the older term". It was commonly of wool, and
there was nothing between the thighs. I'll bet the original wearers would have been glad
to have had modern jockey shorts, if only for exclusion of biting flies.
Calling it a "butt flap" sounds like adolescent contempt.
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#76171
07/15/2002 8:37 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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a loin cloth...a breech clothHmmm, isn't there a difference between these two? I always thought of a loin cloth as more like underpants - a waste band/bit of rope with a single piece of cloth or leather secured front and back, and passing between the legs. Though I suppose it would be hellish wearing something like this if you couldn't get the fit right  A breech cloth I thought to be more of a two piece affair, with separate cloths hanging front and back. Closer relationship to kilts than underpants/G-strings. Not that I know! 
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#76172
07/15/2002 8:41 PM
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from M-W:
Main Entry: breech.cloth
Pronunciation: 'brEch-"kloth, 'brich-
Function: noun
Date: 1793
: LOINCLOTH
and also:
Main Entry: breech.clout
Pronunciation: -"klaut
Function: noun
Date: 1757
: LOINCLOTH
so:
Main Entry: loin.cloth
Pronunciation: -"kloth
Function: noun
Date: 1859
: a cloth worn about the loins often as the sole article of clothing in warm climates
formerly known as etaoin...
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#76173
07/15/2002 8:51 PM
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figured I'd better:
Main Entry: loin
Pronunciation: 'loin
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English loyne, from Middle French loigne, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin lumbea, from Latin lumbus; akin to Old English lendenu loins, Old Church Slavonic ledvije
Date: 14th century
1 a : the part of a human being or quadruped on each side of the spinal column between the hipbone and the false ribs b : a cut of meat comprising this part of one or both sides of a carcass with the adjoining half of the vertebrae included but without the flank
2 plural a : the upper and lower abdominal regions and the region about the hips b (1) : the pubic region (2) : the generative organs
Main Entry: 1gird
Pronunciation: 'g&rd
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gyrdan; akin to Old English geard yard -- more at YARD
Date: before 12th century
Inflected Form(s): gird.ed /'g&r-d&d/; or girt /'g&rt/; gird.ing
transitive senses
1 a : to encircle or bind with a flexible band (as a belt) b : to make fast (as a sword by a belt or clothing with a cord) c : SURROUND
2 : PROVIDE, EQUIP; especially : to invest with the sword of knighthood
3 : to prepare (oneself) for action
intransitive senses : to prepare for action
- gird one's loins : to prepare for action : muster up one's resources
formerly known as etaoin...
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#76174
07/16/2002 10:50 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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In northern england (i.e Yorkshire/Lancashire) the term "clout", meaning either cloth or clothing (depending on context) is still not uncommon, and two hundred years ago would have been the usual term to use.
I can't, for the life of me, remember the word used for "a blow; a buffet," up North. Possibly "bat", although I associate that word in that context with the North Midlands (Nottinghamshire/Leicestershire - e.g., "Shut oop or I'll bat tha tabs" [Keep silence or I shalt administer a blow to thine ears.])
Certainly not "buffet" - in Yorkshire, this means a small stool! (sometimes used for the large, solid cushion-like piece of furniture known as a "pouffe" in southern England.)
EDIT: Just noticed that my title now matches my age. Hrrrmph! (forgive me borrowing your copyright, AnnaS)
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#76175
07/16/2002 11:43 AM
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the usual term
I was thinking just the same Rhu, as in the old saying "Cast n'er a clout 'til May be out" - tho' I expect there are regional variants of this expression.
edit: and may you merrily go on knocking sagger-makers' bottoms ;)
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#76176
07/16/2002 11:56 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Cast n'er a clout 'til May be out
Right on, mav. Presumably this is an entirely English expression, dependent on our particularly indiosyncratic climate? Or does it occur elsewhere in the world?
Incidentally, there is a deal of confusion over the correct interpretation of the above old saw.
Does it mean (as I believe), "wait until the May Tree is flowering (i.e., "out") before divesting yourself of warm clothing;"
OR - does it mean (as many would aver), "Do not remove warm clothing before June 1st."
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#76177
07/16/2002 12:04 PM
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sagger-makers' bottoms
What are you talking about?
Rhuby, what's a May tree, please?
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#76178
07/16/2002 12:38 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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#76179
07/16/2002 12:40 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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You haven't looked at my bio, lately, I guess, jackie  And a "May" tree is the English common-name for the Hawthorn, with it's beautiful, scented, white* flowers that blossom in the month of that name. (*somtimes pink, also) EDIT Ha! beat me to it, Sir - but I'll forgive you because of the brilliant link!
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#76180
07/16/2002 1:05 PM
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"Do not remove warm clothing before June 1st."I think that we can safely add the whole month of June to that old proverb for this year.
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#76181
07/16/2002 1:22 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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#76182
07/16/2002 10:11 PM
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Nancy : In Hawaii the male hula dancers wear a loincloth with a head lei and a neck lei! Little else.
Wonderful dancers. My attention never wavered.
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#76183
07/16/2002 11:26 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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> Little else
That would need some careful concentration ;)
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#76184
07/17/2002 12:57 AM
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personal experience in the field Soooo, BY, exactly where *is your personal experience? little elseALL little, Ann? 
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#76185
07/17/2002 7:43 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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"makes large fireclay containers to hold ware for firing"
OK. That's the definition from the link provided in the post way up there somewhere. Why is Rhubarb a "sagger-maker"?
Befuddled regards,
WW
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#76186
07/17/2002 8:09 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Dud-Dub, if I may indulge in a little post hoc rationalisation (in which I hold a Master's degree!) - Just as the sagger-maker's bottom knocker assists the master by performing essential subsidiary service during the manufacture of a sagger (or segger, in some parts of the Potteries), so do I assist those on this board who provide the kiln in which others fire their wit. It is a humble occupation, not to be compared with those of mighty intellect who produce and collate magnificent etymologies and who pierce our pretensions with cunningly sharpened arrows of wit and humour. It is, nevertheless, a useful - possibly essential - function and one that I am proud to provide.  
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#76187
07/17/2002 8:39 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Rhubarb,
That was positively poetic! Thank you very much for the expression. I'm convinced a sagger-maker would be a very good thing to be, although I know for a fact you are more than a sagger-maker, even though you may enjoy that role on occasion.
Best regards,
Dub-Dub
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#76188
07/17/2002 9:34 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Dear Dub-dub - that is high praise, indeed, from a real-life poet. I shall treasure your words!
atb
H
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#76189
07/20/2002 7:30 AM
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old hand
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old hand
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Drawing a very long bow on the same subject.... an essential component of a New Guinean tribesman's ceremonial dress is called (in pidgin english) "arse grass".
stales
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#76190
07/20/2002 1:48 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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"arse grass".
Now, that's an expression that tickles my fancy - -
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#76191
07/20/2002 1:52 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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>that's an expression that tickles my fancy
Guffaw!
TEd
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#76192
07/20/2002 6:11 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Now, that's an expression that tickles my fancy Whoa, I'll just bet it would!
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#76193
07/20/2002 9:00 PM
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Speaking of tickled - I'm tickled that a thread I started has stirred this much interest  . I know, I know: Simple things for simple minds  . But I'm still tickled. So there!
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