#76115
07/15/2002 1:07 PM
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I had never before heard "French leave" used as term applied to manners.
Always when I have seen it in print it has been a Brit anti-gallic sneer
meaning to desert,
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#76116
07/15/2002 2:37 PM
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While I am completely ignorant of French upper class manners, I remember a soldier
I met in Manila, who had been in Paris prior to VE day, and then got sent to Pacific.
He spoke French well enough to be invited into middleclass French homes, and he
was impressed by the somewhat elaborate courtesies expected on departure from
them. He was expected to shake hands and say a few words to every one of the
host's family and guests. He was very emphatic that middle class French ;manners
were superior to those in America.
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#76117
07/16/2002 11:57 AM
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Posts: 4,757
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emphatic that middle class French ;manners
were superior to those in America
well, more elaborate at least... ;)
I mean, look at how you might sign off even a simple business letter:
"Veuillez agréer, Madame, Monsieur, l'expression de mes sentiments distingués..."
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#76118
07/16/2002 12:36 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Both of the quotes are not really appropriate. The most striking dimension of the
Chinese Wall is not its strength, but its length, which makes it possible for
astronauts orbiting over it to identify it. An interesting detail about it is that
much of it is constructed of compacted laterite soil, which is very resistant
to weathering.
I often wondered why the Great Wall was a significant obstacle. If you look
at pictures of it, it would not be hard to climb. It just occurred to me that
it would be very hard for an invader to get his horses over it.
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#76119
07/16/2002 8:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Do French leave?
Or do they prattle until dawn of post-modernity?
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#76120
07/17/2002 5:01 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Posts: 273 |
In reply to:
The most striking dimension of the
Chinese Wall is not its strength, but its length, which makes it possible for
astronauts orbiting over it to identify it.
Or not. http://www.snopes.com/science/greatwal.htm
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#76121
07/17/2002 10:43 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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http://www.snopes.com/science/greatwal.htm
Thanks for the reference, Vernon. Not the first time that the Urban Legends site has convincingly revealed the mythical nature of "facts" I had entirely taken as read.
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#76122
07/17/2002 11:05 AM
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Posts: 1,346
veteran
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do they prattle until dawn of post-modernity?
A dawn of post-modernity, presumably, follows a night during which all objective truths are mislaid. [groan]
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#76123
07/17/2002 2:07 PM
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Dear Vernon Compton: Please notice I did not say "from the moon". I was talking about astronauts in low earth orbit. In the URL below, the second paragraph from NASA says the Great Wall of China and many other features of the earth can be readily distinguished. http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa090100a.htm
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#76124
07/17/2002 2:43 PM
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veteran
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I was talking about astronauts in low earth orbitBill - a little bit further down in Vernon's referenced page, objects visible from low earth orbit are also discussed. The key point, as repeated in the article you reference, is that this does not distinguish the Great Wall from a great many other man-made objects, including the Kennedy Space Center, the Golden Gate Bridge (your article), and if we're talking ancient objects, the Great Pyramid, for instance. I, for one, had always taken it as read that the Great Wall was the only man-made object visible from space. You implied that it was at least something worthy of note. And we were hardly alone with our misconception: http://www.bugbog.com/ancientsites/world_wonders_by_month/world_wonders_july.htmlIt also struck me that the myth of the Great Wall being uniquely visible from space (originally "from the moon") originated well before it was possible to establish the fact (1930s). That sense of having been hoodwinked for a large part of my life isn't entirely appreciated, but I suppose I ought to get used to it.  
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#76125
07/17/2002 3:11 PM
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From the moon, the earth is just a blue and white ball, and even the continents cannot
reliably be made out.
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#76126
07/17/2002 3:32 PM
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From the moon, the earth is just a blue and white ball- albeit a very beautiful one.  Yes, many people are aware of what you say having seen pictures such as Earthrise: http://www.abc.net.au/science/moon/earthrise.htmThat's presumably why the myth was amended to specify the Great Wall as the only man-made object visible from space after the Apollo missions (at a guess). I wonder how many myths have gone through a similar re-write to survive in the face of new evidence and new common experiences?
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#76127
07/18/2002 4:40 PM
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Posts: 13,858
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Some history books give the name "Irish Bull" to:The Bull of Pope Adrian IV Empowering Henry II to Conquer Ireland. A.D. 1155 "Bull" in this case is from "bulla" the Papal Seal.
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#76128
07/18/2002 5:17 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Re:The Bull of Pope Adrian IV Empowering Henry II to Conquer Ireland
Yes, the only English bishop ever elected to be pope.. and look what he goes and does!
he decided that the catholic faith, as celebrated by the irish was "roman" enough, and that the english were the ones to set about teaching the irish how to be more roman..
900 years later, and there are still repercussions! The english have given up being catholic, but not their claims to ireland.
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#76129
07/18/2002 8:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 69
journeyman
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journeyman
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As I understand it, the Great Wall was not a fortification, as such, but a way of intelligence gathering. The point of it was that you couldn't go past it without a sentry seeing you. The sentry then lit alarm fires visible for many miles around, allowing local militia to respond.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
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#76130
07/18/2002 11:03 PM
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veteran
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The Bull of Pope Adrian IV Empowering Henry II to Conquer IrelandHere's a bit more detail on the English (Anglo-Norman, to be more exact) invasion of Ireland, which suggests that a "deal with the Devil" kicked it off: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/nations/schama_ireland02.shtmlThe english have given up being catholic, but not their claims to irelandSorry, Helen, but that's not true. England has no claim at all on Eire, and is currently working with all parties to try to create an independently-governed Northern Ireland (to the extent that that is what its people want). I reckon Westminster would love to be able to divest itself entirely of Northern Ireland, but that ain't going to be easy. Yes, there was deliberate colonisation of Ireland, especially Northern Ireland, in the 17th C, but you can't send the descendants of these people back to Scotland (mainly) or England now. As such, you have to deal with the people who live there, and all have an equal right to be heard. Many of these people consider themselves British and would like to remain British. Many want anything but - yet, for instance, Sinn Fein now has seats in Westminster and has the same rights as Unionist MPs. Things definitely won't change overnight, but it's been a long, hard slog in the right direction, with many significant sacrifices made on all sides. I think it would be in poor taste not to give full credit to all involved, whatever their persuasion; and it would be a monumental tragedy if the fragile creation of all that hard work were to be shattered. For any passers-by who fancy a potted history of Northern Ireland, here's one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1998/northern_ireland/newsid_10000/10657.stm
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#76131
07/18/2002 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 273
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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In reply to:
reckon Westminster would love to be able to divest itself entirely of Northern Ireland, but that ain't going to be easy.
I am sure that you are correct, given Mr Straw's desperate eagerness to offload Gibraltar.
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#76132
07/19/2002 12:07 PM
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Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Fishona, i actualy agree that the current situations is the best it has been in the last 500 years, and that a real effort has been made by all parties ... but to say England has no claim at all on Eire, and is currently working with all parties to try to create an independently-governed Northern Ireland --
it to say that the island nation of Eire which did exist for thousands of years doesn't..that is now two nations/states. And to place the problem back in the 17 century, and not in the partitioning of ireland in after the 1917 uprising, and the ensueing free state, is not quite acurate.
Yes, the colonist who came over in the 17th century had a right to remain.. but the english goverment made the problem with the partition..
I can understand the colonist thought themselves members of the UK and wanted to stay that way.. but the native people wanted to be part( and still want to be part!) of ireland.
Early in the last century, the english thought it was perfectly ok to disenfranchise the irish in the northern counties, rather than have the english colonist there disenfranchised by the northern counties remaining part of the irish whole...
i do have a love/hate relationship with the english.. and i think this is one area, where i will never to able to agree with the english point of view...
the english started messing in ireland almost 1000 years ago, and are still there.. it wasn't just in the 17th C. that they colonized.. for a 1000 years, they have been trying to impose their will.. and soon, because of birth rate differences, the majority of norther ireland will be, once again, irish. it might not happen in my lifetime, but it is happening.
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#76133
07/19/2002 1:28 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear of troy: just to put a burr under your saddle, I have read that St. Patrick was born
in Wales or thereabouts, and kidnapped by raiders from Ireland. This suggests that Irish
invited controls later applied.
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#76134
07/19/2002 2:11 PM
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Posts: 1,346
veteran
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Well, Helen, it's certainly the last word that: soon, because of birth rate differences, the majority of norther ireland will be, once again, irish. it might not happen in my lifetime, but it is happening.- but meanwhile we have the situation we have, and no matter where and when the fault lies, that's what has to be dealt with. It seems to me that the Israel/Palestine situation is analogous (note I don't say "the same"), in that the more there is talk about historical rights and wanting to return the country to exactly how it was at some point in the past, the further all parties move from the possibility of peace right now. It all turns into a body count, comparing wounds, feeling increasingly self-righteous in recalling the history, and it usually results in the body count being upped a bit more. So it goes - very sad and all too predictable. I get heartily sick of history sometimes, especially when used as justification by successive generations. As such, I quite admire the line taken in this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/ireland/kelle.htmJohn V. Kelleher, is an Irish American (so can't be accused, I suspect, of Unionist tendencies), writing back in 1954. Interesting what has changed in almost 50 years and what has stayed the same ("the future is the same as the past" to cross-thread ). I especially admire Kelleher's willingness to discard history and attend to the (then as now) current situation. I suspect he would see recent developments as going in the right direction. And, going by this article, he would counsel a patient but persistent "gently does it" approach, and would make a notable effort to consider the perspective from the "other side" at such a delicate time. A good man. We could do with many more like him around today. i think this is one area, where i will never to able to agree with the english point of viewThat depends upon what you see as "the English point of view", and whether you think all English people share the same point of view. To the extent that you would get a consensus, I reckon you'd find most English people don't really care about Northern Ireland. "Let it go". As many Unionists see it, they're being slowly but surely sold down the river and they are outraged by the lack of concern and the English ignorance of their situation. But (English) public opinion isn't in their favour and devolution (of varing degrees) is still flavour of the month in the UK. As for me - I can live with agreeing to differ, Helen, and have got on just fine with practically every Irish person I've met. Even the two I met on a train, wearing Brazilian shirts after Brazil had beat England in the World Cup. Bastards.  .
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#76135
07/19/2002 2:53 PM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
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addict
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Okay, I'm going to throw in my hand now and add in a few little facts that have been omitted from the history lesson being debated above. Shona and Helen, both of you have stated everything about the current Irish situation correctly but there are a few missing items. Please allow me to fill in the gaps and allow me the benefit of the doubt since I both live here and I had a hand in the latest peace process (albeit as a voter).
Firstly, the UK has no claim on Eire (read the Irish Republic). The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign nation and is recognised by the United Nations as such. It gained independence after the War of 1921 (not the 1916 rising which was simply an insurrection of national fervour - and a successful failure) and became a republic in 1948 when it also joined the UN.
That claim is over Northern Ireland and is there to protect the interests of those citizens who, quite rightly, feel that they should stay in the UK.
However, until 1997 Bunreacht na hÉireann, the Constitution of Ireland stated in Articles 1 and 2 that the Republic consisted of the entire island of Ireland - a claim which led indirectly to the troubles which have only just ended. In early 1998, to streamline the peace process, the voters in the Republic voted to repeal these artcles from the constitution. This they did with a resounding 95% in favour. The same day Northern Ireland pollsters voted by 75% to 25% to accept the Peace Process. The vote in the South shocked and surprised a number of hard-line Unionists who had always suspected that there was strong sentiment towards reunification in that part. Nothing could be further from the truth. The most important thing to us is that the killing stops in the North. Basically we voted to say 'resolve your own differences and we won't get in your way'. Should reunification be an issue then a referendum must be held and a two-thirds majority must be reached for it to occur. The British government have handed over all power to a power-sharing executive consisting of representatives of all the parties who gained %5 or more of the total vote in a local election. The only controls they don't have is over security and policing - for obvious reasons.
The British government were not solely responsible for partition, Helen. The southern 26 counties were predominantly Catholic and Nationalist and, therefore, had little trouble in whipping up anti-British fervour not to mention recruiting volunteers for various military, paramilitary and guerilla movements. However, in the six counties of the north the same thing was happening in the Unionist camp. Vast units were being mobilised, units comprising battle-hardened veterans right from the Somme with real military training and funded and armed by veteran units in Britain, wealthy patrons and the government in Britain itself.
Defeating the British army in the south was one thing. Fighting a bloody guerilla war in the north was another. The leaders at this time, including Michael Collins, knew that they had to sue for peace and accept the inevitable. The north was definitely not going to be a prize and they were forced to concede it in exchange for a 26 county free state. Though a huge success for the relatively little effort it took, the Republican government led by Eamonn deValera split (deValera wanted to continue the fight - though it would have been very unwise) and the Irish Civil War started in 1922 ending a year later in devastation and the deaths of many of the original Irish leaders including Collins and Griffith. However, the treaty was signed and sealed and the two Irelands took shape, settling down to forty years of relative peace. The grandsons of the original guerillas eventually took up arms over completely unrelated issues in 1969.
Civil rights marches were held to fight for equal rights in the very (although not evenly) mixed areas of Belfast and Derry. Scuffles, riots and fighting broke out between the two communities and troops were introduced to the streets from the mainland. These troops were there to protect the Catholics. Catholic women used to feed and bring cups of tea to the soldiers on the corners and they were more than welcome. Failure to stop the violence and the resurgence of Loyalist paramilitary groups such as the UVF meant that the Catholic communities started to turn against the troops and they increasingly depended on their own paramilitary groups such as the IRA. British troops began to get attacked in the streets by stone-throwers and the violence started in earnest. Finally they retaliated and the first casualties of the modern conflict were recorded. Now the paramilitaries had a legitimate reason to attack and the rest is history.
The latest census (held earlier this year) will indeed show that the majority of people in the North are Catholic/Nationalist but this does not mean that they have an automatic right to self-determination. To prove themselves worthy of government they must first show that they can live with another community and then they must put aside their differences and work together as one. The power-sharing government is almost proof of the latter. The former, I fear, has a long way to go yet.
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#76136
07/22/2002 1:29 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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From Wordsmith's quotation, "Binocular diplopia" is tautological. A one eyed man
cannot have diplopia. As a victim thereof, I know the hypothetic patient in the
quote was making a bitter jest.
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#76137
07/23/2002 4:21 AM
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Posts: 618
addict
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addict
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A one eyed man cannot have diplopia. EA
... unless hysterical.
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#76138
07/23/2002 12:58 PM
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Posts: 13,858
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Dear doc_comfort: Wouldn't work with a man. Maybe a one eyed woman with uterine vision.
(The Greeks thought "hysteria" was only in women, and caused by uterus "wandering" around.)
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#76139
07/23/2002 1:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Be sure to see tsuwm's take on this. and what does "marrow" mean in Wordsmith's quote:
"Without double-entendre British comedy would be bereft.
A short selection from a week's viewing: `You should have
heard the gasps when I showed my marrow to the
Women's Institute'." Thomas Sutcliffe, In Search of
Intelligent Life on Planet Sitcom, The Independent
(London) Mar 8, 1996.
Did he take of his skin, and dance around in his bones?
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#76140
07/23/2002 1:33 PM
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Posts: 679
addict
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You should have heard the gasps when I showed my marrow to the Women's Institute
Oooerr. F'nar, f'nar. Cripes! Corkers! Snigger, snigger.
Did he take of his skin, and dance around in his bones?
Not quite, Bill. A marrow is a very long, narrow vegetable. Not unlike a large cucumber.
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#76141
07/23/2002 2:30 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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I don't know, Rubrick. What is double-entendre about using a euphemism to
suggest exhibitionism? Maybe he had a three foot phalloid parsnip. Complete
with green top.
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#76142
07/24/2002 6:13 AM
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Posts: 618
addict
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addict
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Maybe he had a three foot phalloid parsnip.
That's funny, because I've got a thingy shaped just like a turnip.
Please. Let somebody else know what I'm talking about.
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#76143
07/24/2002 6:26 AM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 742
old hand
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old hand
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>Please. Let somebody else know what I'm talking about.
I would like to say how much I will miss your honest and friendly companionship.
But as we both know, it would be an utter lie. I will therefore confine myself to saying simply, "Sod off," and if I ever see you again it'll be twenty billion years too soon.
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#76144
07/24/2002 8:34 AM
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Posts: 679
addict
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That's funny, because I've got a thingy shaped just like a turnip.
You can get a cream for that, Doc.
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#76145
07/24/2002 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Also called "snake eyes".
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#76146
07/24/2002 12:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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a thingy shaped just like a turnip.
You can get a cream for that, Doc.
or make it bigger with bullshit ;)
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#76147
07/24/2002 9:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In looking up "ambaces" which was not in my dctionary, I noticed "ambages" and archaic word for
winding paths. It might be worth resurrecting.
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#76148
07/25/2002 1:54 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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try spelling it "ambsace" and see if you have more luck with your dictionary. ambage is a lovely word.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#76149
07/25/2002 12:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Does a double diminutive make an augmentative?
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#76150
07/25/2002 12:51 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What is a double diminutive? Two diminutives, or a double strength diminutive?
As a challenge, how many diminutives in English can we list?
Starting with "cock" "ott" "kin".....
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#76151
07/25/2002 1:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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What is a double diminutive? Ask Anu. It's in the derivation of today's word. Starting with "cock" "ott" "kin".....Figures you'd start with "cock," Dr. Bill.  Well, we also have -ling, -et(te)....
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#76152
07/25/2002 1:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear AnnaStrophic: "Cock" is the diminutive in "Ride a cock horse to Banbury Cross" No sex involved.
But I nearly fell over laughing when I saw my wife's first obstetrian's name. "Mabel C. Hiscock".
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#76153
07/25/2002 1:19 PM
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Posts: 679
addict
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addict
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cock
This can be both diminutive and augmentative..... [bringing the thread down to my level emoticon]
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#76154
07/25/2002 2:21 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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To say that a dominant kid is "cock of the walk" is perhaps augmentative. How about some
samples, Rubrick?
It occuse to me that "saccus" has a diminutive "sacculus". But how do you know a
"saccellus" is smaller than a "sacculus"?
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