#75934
07/15/2002 12:43 PM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 679
addict
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addict
Joined: May 2000
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Rumour has it that Gerry Anderson was Bill Gates' technical advisor for The Road Ahead.I always suspected that someone was pulling some strings for him! geddit? 
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#75936
07/15/2002 4:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
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Howcum nobody's mentioned "prophecy?" Seems to fit.
"Inovative proclamer" also "visionary leader" is how OED defines prophet.
A person who makes a prophecy (foretell the future) would be a prophet, oui?
Re Star Treck - anyone else notice that our present cell phones look and work (flip to open and flip to close) very much like the communicators used by James Tiberius Kirk on the Original ST?
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#75937
07/15/2002 4:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771 |
Well, now you're just showing off, wow...
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#75938
07/15/2002 4:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 8
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2002
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OK..you can spell "James Tiberius Kirk" and not "Star Trek"? 
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#75939
07/15/2002 5:05 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
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>the tendency, when making predictions, to project the present into the future?
here's an article that contends that's pretty much all you can do anymore:
Blinded by Science
July 14, 2002
By PATRICIA LEIGH BROWN
THE impossible isn't what it used to be.
Not so long ago, the realms of science fact and science
fiction seemed worlds apart, two swirling spheres orbiting
each other around the galaxy.
But lately, news flashes from the front lines of science
suggest a bewildering telepathic collision between fact and
fantasy. In Australia, researchers in quantum optics say
they have "teleported" a radio-signal message in a laser
beam, using the same kind of principles that enabled Scotty
to beam up Captain Kirk. In rural Quebec, images of H. G.
Wells's "The Island of Dr. Moreau" have alighted upon
genetically altered goats whose milk contains a gene from
the golden-orb weaving spider, enabling goats to produce
milk containing superstrong spider silk. Meanwhile, two
young British researchers invented a "tooth phone" - a
microvibrator and low-frequency receiver that can be
implanted into one's tooth, raising the possibility of a
James Bond dental experience while undergoing root canal.
All this and "cc" - the cloned cat produced earlier this
year by Texas scientists - too.
The whirlwind convergence of science fact and fiction
raises the question of whether a sense of the impossible is
becoming passe. "Science fact is rapidly outstripping
science fiction," said Neil Gershenfeld, head of the new
Center for Bits and Atoms at M.I.T.'s Media Laboratory,
where a researcher is developing "paintable" computers with
chips suspended in viscous liquid, making the idea of
running to the hardware store to buy a few gallons of
computer a distinct possibility.
"I feel great sympathy for science fiction writers these
days," said Paul Saffo, a director at the Institute for the
Future in Palo Alto, Calif. "People used to go to
psychiatrists to say, `the C.I.A. planted a chip in my
brain.' Now, the family dog has a chip to prevent him from
getting lost. In a few years, psychiatrists may be asking,
`Have you been chipped?' "
Even paranoia isn't what it used to be.
In his
forthcoming book "I'm Working on That: A Trek From Science
Fiction to Science Fact," William Shatner explores the
reciprocity between Starship Enterprise fantasy and
real-life scientific breakthroughs. "What was suggested 30
years ago in `Star Trek' is now old hat," he said in a
telephone interview. "If you analyze the word `impossible,'
you break it down into `possible' and `I'm.' If I'm
possible, anything is possible. One imagined flight of
fantasy builds on another."
It all gets surreal.
As a culture, we have become writers of our own fantasy
saga in which pacemakers, cloning, the Internet, speech
recognition software and the like are merely part of the
scenery. And while much of what now seems humdrum was first
envisioned in science fiction - from mobile phones ("Star
Trek") to fax machines (Philip K. Dick) - it can sometimes
seem as though the tables have been turned, with reality
now providing inspiration to fantasy.
The science-fiction writer Bruce Sterling, who once wrote
about goats genetically altered to produce plastic
explosives, sees scientists unveiling more and more ideas
that can feed a fertile sci-fi mind. "They're becoming more
peculiar and far out," he said. "They're really into
antigravity and time travel."
Mr. Sterling recently returned from a Computer Research
Association conference, where computer scientists hobnobbed
about genetic algorithms and ubiquitous computing. He says
he came away with a full spiral notebook and the germs of a
novel's plot: a world in which every object is seeded with
sensors, where black helicopters hover over smoking ruins
and spew out computers that detect breathing.
To the biologist Robert J. Full, director of the Poly-Pedal
Lab at the University of California at Berkeley, this is "a
revolutionary moment" made possible by cross-fertilization
between disciplines. His laboratory is using the principles
of insect locomotion and the suction qualities of geckos'
toes to develop lifelike robots, including a fetching
self-righting six-legged fellow named RHex. RHex emerged
from collaborations between biologists, engineers,
mathematicians, computer scientists, and even Pixar
animators working on "A Bug's Life." Interplay with
once-alien colleagues is allowing scientists to venture
where they haven't gone before - and science buffs are
taking notice.
IN San Francisco, the Long Now Foundation, a nonprofit
organization that is building a 10,000-year clock, recently
launched a Web site called LongBets .org that attempts to
take the pulse of the impossible. People - many of them big
shots - are placing bets on what the future holds and will
be publicly accountable for their predictions. Among them:
"By 2030, commercial passengers will routinely fly in
pilotless planes," and "At least one human alive in the
year 2000 will still be alive in 2150."
"Things that clearly seemed impossible a few years ago,
like nanotechnology, have moved from the lunatic fringe to
core doctrine more quickly than at any time in history,"
said Stewart Brand, a founder of Long Now. "The downside
has become taking the long term seriously. We need to
develop civilizational patience."
In the meantime, it might be difficult to keep fantasy from
springing forth from newfound scientific realities.
Especially dreams of gossamer spider-silk evening gowns and
Sean Connery whispering sweet nothings into our molars.
Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company
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#75940
07/15/2002 5:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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RE: anyone else notice that our present cell phones look and work (flip to open and flip to close) very much like the communicators used by James Tiberius Kirk on the Original ST?
that was a very conscious design decision made by motorola!
they wanted to make a smaller cell phone, and the Star tak (get the name!) was specifically designed to look like the Star trek communicators.. life sometimes does immitate art, just as art immitates life!
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#75941
07/15/2002 5:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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one of the thing we must remember about the future is it will in many ways be just like the past!
i live in a 75 year old house.. i know people who live in 150 year old houses, and some in the UK live in 300+ year old houses..
somehow, houses haven't changed that much.. (well the dweller of the 300+ year old house complain about the damp..No, wait, doesn't every home owner in UK complain about the damp?)
houses have changed.. and the 300 year old house have been changed over time.. the plumbing has been improved.. pumps have been replaced by pipes and facets, and drains have been improved.. and the out house (what ever) has been moved in..
in general, in new housing, ceiling are higher (but not nessesarly, some old house had very hight ceilings.. depends on how fancy it was to begin with..)
room are bigger, and more open and have more windows, fireplaces are smaller and fewer, storage space, as closets, cupboards or china cabinets are bigger and there are more of them.. but 300 year (and older) houses still function.. the changes, like electricty, plumbing and heating and closets can be retrofitted into existing houses with total destroying them.
like wise, 300 years ago, a well off person would not walk a great distance if they had to travel to the city, but would take a conveyance..
nowdays, that is a car or train, then it was a horse drawn carriage, so there is a technology change, but not an attitude..
recipes for dinner and menus have changed only slightly.. and mostly for the lower economic classes.. the rich always had access to lemons, tea, sugar and other imported foods, now everyone has access. Likewise, the poor eat more meat, and cheese, and other foods that were luxuries.. but really, food is mostly the same.. what has changed is, it is fresher (well not always) cleaner, better preserved, cheaper, easier to cook and store, and there is lots more of it... bread is softer and whiter.. but its still bread.. and beer is bottles, but still beer.. for the most part we still eat the same foods as we did 300 years ago.. (yes, red meat is more likely to be beef than venison, but meat is meat.. and almost no one eats wrens or larks, when chicken is so cheap, and available. )
(in the past, eggs were fresher, often eaten the same day they were laid, nowdays, even organic eggs are likely to be at least 3 days old before they get to the store, and then rarely eaten the same day they were purchased. the same was true for milk, it was often served same day!)
clothing? well we often wear less, and there are more synthetic fibers, and its better tailored and cheaper but men still wear trousers, and woman still wear skirts, and both men and woman wear shirts with buttons.. zippers and velcro are new- but Buttons were new not that long ago! (the amish don't use buttons for the most part, since they are too new!)
clothes are cleaner, lighter weight, and easier to care for... the changes are machine knits (very fine knits, like T shirt fabric) and synthetics micro fibers are new even in my lifetime! but i still wear cotton, and linen and silk and wool! the clothes are more colorful, since synthetic dyes are richter.. but some plant dyes were very rich, and while the were not color safe, since clothes got washed less often, the colors didn't have a chance to fade.
the big changes, transportation, communications, electronics, just made things easier... and faster and cheaper..
the biggest changes that effected one life and life style are are literacy, books, information, travel... (which are possible because of the big changes in transportation, communications and electronics!
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#75942
07/15/2002 6:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<one of the few things we must remember about the future...>>
'nuff said.
;)
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#75943
07/15/2002 6:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
<<one of the few things we must remember about the future...>> 'nuff said. No no inselpeter, nuff didn't say that, of troy did.
Nuff was the one who said something bad about Captain Kirk.
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#75944
07/15/2002 7:35 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Milim, do you know that one of the things that makes me feel welcome here is being caught using the wrong idiom, words, and once in a while the wrong spelling it not that i spell thing wrong once in a while, its just once in while i enjoy being corrected!
i laughed when inselpeter pointed out that i said one of the few things we must remember about the future-- but it sort of make my point.. the future will, in many ways be just like the past! we can remember it!
mind you, i am sitting a computer, using a technology that, 20 years ago, was almost unthinkable to say this!
when thing change, they change in unexpected ways, and often keep remnants of the old technology.
i do use a qwerty keyboard, a design set up 100 years ago, intentionally to be slow, when typist could type faster than mechanical keyboards could move! so while my pentium 3 technology is state of the art, the keyboard is a legacy!
and Cap't Kirk was a sexist womanizer!
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#75945
07/15/2002 7:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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>>our present cell phones look and work ...very much like the communicators used ..on the Original ST
>a very conscious design decision made by motorola!Ah, but most European "mobys" don't work like Star Trek communicators, as Nokia are by far the most popular brand. As you say, some of the Motorolas do, and there are nifty little numbers by Samsung and Sony (of course) that flip open - but sometimes it's false economy. People prefer slimness to shortness, if you see what I mean. And then weight is a very important factor. Nokias are almost light enough to sit in a top shirt pocket without being pendulous. All the others except the Sony (which is very nice but expensive) tend to be noticeably heavier. Funny, I managed to get by without my own moby right up until my last birthday - and now, of course, I take mine almost everywhere. Then again, I got by without a car and a TV of my own until I was 29. Surprising how the need isn't necessarily there until it's introduced, eh?
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#75946
07/15/2002 8:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
yes, it is interesting what we consider to be vital.. but that is taking off to philosophy! but i suppose pondering the future is philosophical, too!
i have cell phone for emergenies.. i don't even have a contract for service.. except for on-line service i don't make a dozen phone calls in a month.. i do stay on for a while, and have made hour long calls to Japan (oh, my that bill!) but phones are one technology i could do with out, almost. but ice machines? i love ice machines!
NY has had a few black out.. every few years we are reminded about life with out electricity, for a few hours. its always interesting.
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#75947
07/15/2002 8:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
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Blinded by ScienceThat's a brilliant article, tsuwm. Very appropriate - also very scary in some ways. Dunno, I think the focus of prediction changes, is all. It's not so much the technology (and as the article says, it can't be), it's more how all of these SF dreams/nightmares coming true at the same time will change our culture. And that is almost impossible to predict. If you explore some recent(ish) SF, these are the very issues that are (implicitly at least) being explored. William Gibson's "CyberPunk" stuff went in that direction quite substantially; Iain M Banks' "Culture" similarly explores what almost limitless technology would do to the human race. SF (and probably futurology) has been here before, in that the inevitable conclusion once looked like nuclear holocaust, end of story. Then along comes something like Judge Dredd ( http://www.2000adonline.com/index.php3?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=dredd) which says "OK, so it happens. Then what? Because people will still be around in some shape or form." I find that quite inspiring. I suppose it's about a sense of possibilities.
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#75948
07/15/2002 8:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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the future will, in many ways be just like the past! we can remember it!
Ever read Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke, Helen (or anyone)? Nice bit in there about why we have a particular image of the Devil - related to the circularity of time.
And that reminds me of another "what would people do with limitless power" story - Dancers At The End Of Time by good old Michael Moorcock. A recommended read.
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#75949
07/15/2002 8:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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NY has had a few black out.. every few years we are reminded about life with out electricity, for a few hoursWe often call them "power cuts", which is interesting as it may go back to Trade Union actions and the WInter of Discontent... but there's a serious digression  I think it's frightening how close we all are to chaos when the power goes. Being out in the country, my family is reasonably well-prepared for power cuts, but if the power were off for more than, say, 8 hours, we'd start having real difficulties. Freezer contents defrost, can't use the main ovens.. mind you, that ain't life or death, as we could still use the (propane gas) hob. Hmmm, maybe a fuel crisis would be worse. I suppose you always adapt as required.
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#75950
07/16/2002 10:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
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Ever read Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke, Helen (or anyone)? Nice bit in there about why we have a particular image of the Devil - related to the circularity of time.
A great and haunting story. Forgot that part about circularity of time.
k
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#75951
07/16/2002 11:57 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Futuring the present can not only be predictive/projective but productive. General Motors' "Futurama" pavillion at the 192[9] World's Fair is a case in point. In it, GM presented an image of a United States built around the automobile. It was by far the most popular attraction at the fair. The reality may not be altogether like the dazzle, but the dazzle certainly played its part in the advancement of it.
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#75952
07/16/2002 12:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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wasn't that the 1939 world fair? --
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#75953
07/16/2002 2:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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>Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke
Forgot that part about circularity of time
Remember what the aliens looked like, FF? There's a suggestion that their presence at the End (of Mankind) is so powerful and significant it "bounces round" to the Beginning and resides with us as a racial memory, i.e. infinite future = infinite past (or just infinity=infinity, I suppose..)
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#75954
07/16/2002 2:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
<<wasn't that the 1939 world's fair>> I knew I put the brackets around the wrong digit!  [certificate of immaturity and stupidity emoticon]
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#75955
07/16/2002 2:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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Futuring the present can not only be predictive/projective but productiveor at least a self-fulfilling prophecy! I wonder - if a group of people had seen the US built around the automobile as something fantastically undesirable, could they have even slowed up what happened? I suspect that the "law of reversed effort" would have applied, and they would find they were merely providing extra publicity for something completely inevitable. I also wonder which is most effective in bringing about change: 1. Portrayal of a negative future, being what will happen if you don't do a defined something. 2. Portrayal of a positive future, being what will happen if you do do a defined something. I know which one looks like it should be most effective, but is that actually borne out by reality?
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#75956
07/16/2002 4:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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somehow, houses haven't changed that much.. (well the dweller of the 300+ year old house complain about the damp..Just recalled seeing my sister in law recently. She lives (along with her family - hubby, 5 kids & a dog) in a huge, lovely old farmhouse (17thC/18thC I think) - but it came at a big price, and continues to cost a fortune in maintenance. I suppose in some ways people used to build better, with nice thick walls, etc, but in many ways building techniques have improved hugely, and modern buildings are much more economical to run and maintain. Think about thatching, for instance. Delightful stuff, as picturesque as you can get, but expensive. There are also often problems with renovating this kind of property in the UK. "Listed buildings" or buildings in "conservation areas" are quite rightly protected, but this will tend to mean even more expense if you want to introduce modern features whilst retaining the original character. We've had a couple of excellent home improvements recently - double-glazing and replacing the kitchen (which involved moving a boiler and taking down a flue/chimney). I'd hate to be in a situation where I couldn't do that kind of stuff; and it would really rankle to be unable to make my home more environmentally friendly. So personally, I'm going to stick with 1920ish onwards houses even when I do make my million  Sorry, this is all a bit unromantic of me, but sadly it is also true!
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#75957
07/16/2002 4:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
Diving quickly in and out (no time) of this fascinating cats cradle of thoughts and ideas, how about "prescient" as THE WORD.
There was a sci-fi book (or may be a trilogy?) by James Blish called "The Flying Cities" or some such title. Very imaginative tales about the cities of earth having outlived their usefulness in an age gone back to its agrarian roots. The cities up and left to go and look for work, taking themselves off into space with the aid of a device called a spindizzy. The mayor of New York was the hero - someone mentioned deja vu? - and the final ending occurred one nanosecond past "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe". Can anyone confirm the title?
dxb
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#75958
07/16/2002 4:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the AMNH has a imax film on water.. and focus on the NY water system. NY water system, is basicly over 100 years old, an delivers all of the cities water needs (it was stressed by a drought, that ended in May) and it is primarly gravity fed. NYC water cleanliness and purity exceeds (i will admit at time low) US Federal standards... and is treated only with a low level of clorination.
but.. cities like NY are dependant on resourses far out of their reaches.. NY Water comes from reservours 100 miles away.. and while it has a good system, it has no viable alterantive.. with the lose or distructions of the water system, NY, would fade from sight, and other cities would take over its functions.. no one city would take over all of them i suspect, but still NY would sink into oblivion.. and as its resourses and value as a city failed, the harbor, in danger already of silting up, would. with out a port, or a good water supply, NY would lose 90% of its populations, and just be another small city half on the east coast, like new london or bridgeport..
likewise, energy in NYC is generated in Canada and Niagara falls.. (there are local generators, but we are dependent on the "grid", too..
i don't see how cities can outlive there usefulnes.. but what is defined as useful does change.. NY as i pointed out a few weeks ago, has a great natural Harbor, Bean, our resident oceanographer, said, oh, yeah... most people don't think of NY as port town. NY main focus has moved from ocean going shipping to financial management..
good cities have the ability to change.. Much is often made of Atlanta (GA) -- a city famous because it did not start out on a river or port.. but rather as a rail hub..
1000 years ago, overland transport was expensive and unreliable, and all cities were ports, for local and distant shipping.. some of those port silted up, and the cities disappeared.. others, developed lives for themselves aside from there original purpose.
150 years ago, Sag Harbor NY, and New Bedford MA were big cities.. Centers for whalers, and whale oil, whale ivory, and other imports.. today, both have remade themselves over as seaside resorts town. but both had hard times as they changed.. and some port cities never succeded in changing and langish.
other cities, redefine themselves to new needs..
London and Paris, port cities and capitals are no longer dependant on shipped goods or the crown. tourism, fashion, finacial markets contribute more to the cities health than shipping.. they have evolved.
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#75959
07/16/2002 5:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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<<or at least a self-fulfilling prophecy>>
"productive" in a literal sense and without connoting value; as a factory may be said to be productive.
Concerning the "law of reversed effort," that's a nice term ([truly emoticon}), where'd you find it? -- in terms of the advancement of the auto industry's program, one would need to look at the whole scheme of communications, pr, and beliefs about industry and progress and political and economic and regulatory environment at that time in order to make an assessment. I don't think you could make any direct inferences based on what one might expect to happen today. It is interesting that various agenda should acquire an air of inevitability under the rubrick of progress, though -- so that it almost doesn't seem to matter which, positive or negative, future you pick.
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#75960
07/17/2002 9:38 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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the "law of reversed effort," that's a nice term ([truly emoticon}), where'd you find it? I personally found it when addicted to Alan Watts (as a student, surprisingly enough ): http://www.manypaths.com/book13.htmBut I've only just found the term was first coined by Emile Coue "the father of auto-suggestion": http://www.geocities.com/recutter/rel4.htmlI certainly believe in the basic truth of the law; very often the more you try to do something, the more you achieve the opposite of what you intended. it almost doesn't seem to matter which, positive or negative, future you pickYes. Events can take on a life of their own, and achieve such a momentum that it's difficult even varying their course a little. On the other hand (butterfly's wings and what have you), in the global village relatively small events can add up to make a huge difference. Damn, me off into philosophy again. 
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#75961
07/17/2002 9:55 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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this fascinating cats cradle of thoughts and ideasWhat a pleasant and positive term for something that could easily be seen as an anarchic mish-mash of tangential (?) observations, David (and mea culpa to the extent this thread is like that) how about "prescient" as THE WORDHmmm. I think "prescient" relates more to the accuracy of predictions than to the way the predictions are made. You could say someone was prescient whether they did a linear projection of the present into the future or whether they took a leap into the unknown on the basis of little or no current experience - as long as the prediction turned out to be accurate. I think I'm tending towards visionary to describe the "non-linear" predictions (and predictors). Still haven't firmed up on a term for the "linear futurologists" - though last night a friend suggested to me that such people suffer from temporal inertia
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#75962
07/18/2002 3:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
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Define the tendency, when making predictions, to project the present into the future, then make up a name that will delineate and effect that condition.OK, Mister Fishonabike, Mister one hand clapping, I will attempt your rue de gra dea and so preclude your challenge. - - oui? In a later message I remain, Milo Washington.
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#75963
07/18/2002 9:50 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
Mister one hand clappingThat's "fin", surely? Or we'll never hear the end of it. So let me be the first to throw in the Tao. Incidentally, just found an amusing and informative link on "the sound of one hand": http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_049your rue de gra dea"Road of fa(t) god". Hmmm. Lost me here, Mr Washington, sir!
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#75964
07/18/2002 11:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
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addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
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#75965
07/18/2002 1:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
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#75966
07/18/2002 2:18 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Re:your rue de gra dea
"Road of fa(t) god". Hmmm.
Lost me here, Mr Washington, sir!
Oh one of milum clever bits i got first time round..
not a coup de grace but a rue de gra dea
or at least that what i think.. Milo plays at intensionally make spoonerism..and when you get them, they are so witting and fun.. but half the time.. i think about them, and ponder them, and then some time months later, i finally catch on..
trouble with Milum is, he keeps unrating himself, or overating us.. and we keep missing his jokes and not realizing how clever he is by half.. (still i don't mind too much that Milo thinks i am quicker on the uptake, and twice as clever than i really am.. )
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#75967
07/18/2002 3:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Brilliant thread, folks! Coming to this late, I found many of my ideas and questions unfolding in the succession of posts. I was going to ask if a non-fiction, empirical foresight like Toffler's Future Shock," would be included in this equation; if Wells' The Island of Dr. Moreau, while concerned with experimental vivisection, was prophetic to some of today's new medical techniques (i.e. pig's hearts, etc.); and if a far leap of future prophecy, as in Heinlein's extra-dimensional space travel in The Time Tunnel is only a seeming leap until it's plausible, and then becomes a linear prediction.
However, the one direction of futurology not heavily mentioned is the sociofuturists, as in Orwell's 1984 (once regarded as science fiction.) Many of his "predictions" there are, alarmingly, already in place, and the vestiges of many others are increasingly appearing on the horizon. In like manner Huxley's Brave New World. And how would we categorize the allegorical teechnique of H.G. Wells' The Time Machine, where he depicts the Morlock society of the far future as a metaphor for the sad vulnerabilties of human nature? Is he saying human nature will never change, or just highlighting our present dilemma by using the future? And where does his vision of the machine, itself, fit into this discussion if it were possible? (in fact, the parallel of Wells and Huxley seems to be, "give people their 'paradise,' give people their 'soma', and you can do anything you want with them...in 1920 or in 4020). Then there is, for instance, the gracious and free-spirited sexual mores of Robert A. Heinlein's "Future History" (most notably in Time Enough for Love; the Notebooks of Lazarus Long), set in a far future world, but predictive of current trends in sociology?
Then there is also psycho-spiritual frontiers of C. J. Jung and others.
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#75969
07/18/2002 3:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
Praps, The Eternal Return? (already coined)
Why do I read the above and think immediately:
"April is the cruelest month."
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#75970
07/18/2002 3:44 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
And as if that weren't enough to stamp the seal of melancholy, I just read toward the end:
Unreal City
Under the brown fog of a winter dawn,
A crowd flowed over London Bridge, so many,
I had not thought death had undone so many.
Sighs, short and infrequent, were exhaled,
And each man fixed his eyes before his feet,
Flowed up the hill and down King William Street
To where Saint Mary Woolnoth kept the hours
With a dead sound on the final stroke of nine.
And, again, there's that number nine...
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#75971
07/18/2002 8:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
enough to stamp the seal of melancholyBut Eliot is a brilliant poet, WW - and, sometimes unwittingly, shows that from the depths of despair something infinitely precious and beautiful (yet also fantastically commonplace) can be retrieved. Classic examples of this could be the great Blues performances, but continuing on the Eliot theme, The Love Song of J.Alfred Prufrock: http://www.bartleby.com/198/1.htmland Preludes: http://www.bham.net/soe/arclight/orb2.htmand The Hollow Men: http://www.cs.umbc.edu/~evans/hollow.html-will all do nicely. It seems to me that in conjuring up infinite despair, Eliot nonetheless conjures up infinity. And his eloquence and use of often surreal and dream-like imagery is amazing. His despair is rooted in a tremendously powerful realisation of what we all could be, and what he himself longs to be. So - to the extent that he communicates his longing and to the extent that we share the feeling, his is a powerful affirmation of humanity. Returning vaguely to the theme of this thread (ha ha! turning an oil tanker..) Eliot projects a dismal present into eternity, the only way out being a revolutionary leap into the unknown. That's also the underlying meaning of W'ON's (or rather Nietzsche's) Eternal Return. If Now is Forever it can be infinitely depressing or infinitely wonderful. Or, indeed, both at the same time.
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#75972
07/18/2002 9:21 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
the one direction of futurology not heavily mentioned is the sociofuturistsYes, W'ON, not dealt with yet, although I did say - in response to tsuwm's article about SF becoming truth so rapidly it made SF almost redundant - that recent SF dealt more with the cultural and social implications of people having god-like powers (for instance). 1984, Brave New World and The Time Machine (and Ira Levin's This Perfect Day, incidentally) could all be classed as the intentional projection of (then-)present aspects of life into the future, thus enabling them to be observed as if from afar. This is a very powerful and effective writing technique, and maybe proves my point that a concise term for projecting the present into the future would be generally useful! Making a fairy-tale story of current events is effective in a very similar way, and indeed, Animal Farm takes exactly that approach. What would we call that? Allegorizing?  the gracious and free-spirited sexual mores of Robert A. Heinlein's "Future History"...set in a far future world, but predictive of current trends in sociology?Hmmm, but is it? I see Heinlein's stuff as more of a straightforward projected wish-fulfilment. "Wouldn't the world be a happier and healthier place if we could all cast off our outdated sexual hang-ups?" kind of thing. But maybe I'm just an outdated prude.
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#75973
07/19/2002 3:31 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
Brave New World
I just happen to be reading this right now, and the sexual mores in that society are pretty free, if not non-existent. Though I'm not sure they could be classified as free-spirited. That seems to go against the theme of the book.
Huxley did though predict, perhaps logically, that flight would become the main mode of transport. They use plane-like vehicles seemingly in the same manner as trains, though they have propellers. In fact, he has a flight from London to New Mexico taking about 6.5 hours. Pretty impressive for a prop plane if you ask me.
I would hope that we're moving in the opposite direction of his society in the area of social stratification, but who knows what cloning will do.
As for 1984, I'm not sure how common TVs were in '48 (when it was written), but he seems to have predicted fairly well the wide-spread usage of them (telescreens), even if not for recreational purposes.
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