#72748
06/14/2002 3:52 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
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There's such a good discussion going on about what a "thing" is, it made me think of a companion thread:
A friend of mine, a philosophy prof in Philadelphia, did his dissertation (have I got that right?!) on the human concept of "right." (eg, how do we know what is right?) He explained it to me thus: we were having coffee together and he picked up his mug and said, "For example, we call this a coffee mug, or just a mug. We have all agreed to call it this. We wouldn't call it an earwig. But how do we know or understand what is right?" That's as far as I remember the conversation, but I think the gist of his point was, do we have a universal right? on what is it based? how did we determine it? if we don't, how DO we know what is right and what is wrong?
Since that long-ago conversation, I've had the pleasure of proofing some of his papers for him. The world of philosophy is a very deep one, I learned....Holy cow! some of the intricate discussions philosophers get into, with regard to what is ethical and what isn't, etc. I'll post some (the bare bones, that is) if anyone is interested.
Meanwhile: How do we determine what is right?
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#72749
06/14/2002 1:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Whatever accomplishes the greatest good for the greatest number is right.
Philsophy gives me a headache.
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#72750
06/14/2002 1:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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Whatever accomplishes the greatest good for the greatest number is right.While doing harm to a minority? It then becomes wrong to the minority. Philsophy gives me a headache.Perhaps this tells us why few philosophers had many children! 
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#72751
06/14/2002 1:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7 |
On this forum we have two (at least) self-appointed experts on what's right. If you want to know determine what's right for discussion on this board, ask Sick and Tired, he makes all those decisions himself. If you want to know what's right on any other level, ask Keiva, he's just never wrong. The only problem with these two sources of ultimate right is this - if everyone is right, what's left?
Those who think they know everything are always the enemy of those who do.
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#72752
06/14/2002 2:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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"For example, we call this a coffee mug, or just a mug. We have all agreed to call it this. We wouldn't call it an earwig. But how do we know or understand what is right?" ...
He answers his own question we have all agreed to call it that
It is Consensus - a shared body of view.
Then he goes off on a tangent about what is right !
From what I have seen and heard of philosophy professors, they ask questions to which they have already formulated the answers they want to hear. (the "correct answer.")
The discussions then are really arguements where each tries to bring the other around to giving the pre-determined (aka correct) answer.
What is really unconscionable is when they pose these questions to youngsters and do nothing to increase their knowledge but instead just embarrass and humiliate them ... unless, that is, one lucky youth stumbles on the "correct" answer ... but don't worry the Prof has yet another twist in waiting.
Arrgggghhhhh
OTOH (people) all agreed to call it this and why they did and how they did and the evolution of words in language and all attendant mysteries are what this place is about.
Send him here to discuss WORDS ... tell him to take his philosophy questions elsewhere - to discombobulate those who give a rat's asterisk!
Dr Bill is right - it is headache-making - to say nothing of the nausea.
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#72753
06/14/2002 9:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 69
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 69 |
If you want to know what "right and wrong" is not, consider this: which holy (i.e. unchangable, unquestionable) books have condoned slavery? (Answer - most of them.) Is slavery now an acceptable practice? (Of course not.) Then you know there is no "absolutes" in right and wrong. What actually is right and wrong (as others have pointed out) is hard to say.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
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#72754
06/14/2002 10:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Whatever accomplishes the greatest good for the greatest number is right.
Philsophy gives me a headache.Ah, Bill, utilitarianism. Great stuff. Your entire constitution is based on it, so we can see precisely where you stand on constitutional matters!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#72755
06/15/2002 3:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
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Dr Bill (and wow and others!) are RIGHT - this is no place for a philosophy thread. Sorry bout dat. I just find it an intriguing question....particularly given how wedded many people in this ol' world are, to being right. Ever noticed how some people know they're in the wrong, and yet they very much resent having it pointed out to them? A cyclist wrote a letter to our local daily paper t'other day that illustrated exactly this. Someone in a car nearly cut him off, and he gently pointed this out to the man - who growled and muttered and said he didn't cut the cyclist off. The whole conversation was related in the letter and it really was interesting. Same thing happens with road rage. Who hops out of his car and shoots or punches the other driver? Why, the aggressor. Some people don't like having it pointed out to them that they were wrong about something. Some people are pretty good about it, though....the same letter to the ed. talked about another situation in which someone passed the writer on the left on a cycle path (this was in North America, for those who drive on the wrong side - well, it's not the right side, is it!  ) and he politely pointed it out to her - and she acknowledged she was in the wrong, and apologised. Good for her! 'K, enough of my pedantic ramblings about right and wrong.
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#72756
06/15/2002 3:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 819 |
pedantic ramblings
Pedantic? From Latin pedis; of the foot, + antic? You have tricky feet?
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#72757
06/15/2002 1:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...this is no place for a philosophy thread
Whaddya mean? This is exactly the place for a philosophy thread...especially when it seeks to define specific terms, but especially if we are talking about "right and wrong" (one of the most miscellaneous subjects on the planet)
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#72758
06/15/2002 2:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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s slavery now an acceptable practice? (Of course not.)
There are those who would argue that physical slavery has been replaced by economic slavery. In the USA, anti-trust laws are often ignored, and economic polarization has created a new class of slave owners. It is as if Jeffersonian physical ownership of slaves has been replaced by Hamiltonian ownership of capital.
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#72759
06/16/2002 12:01 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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no Geoff, it ped+ant+ic Ant like feet..
(she just didn't mention if she had 2 or 6) i don't want to cast aspersions, but we did have archie, the famous typewriting cockroach post.. so it possible she could be a queen ant. (being coddled like a queen ant, giving birth to every being in her known world, could lead her to think she is a godess...)
i think being a queen ant, with 6 ant like feet, might be more attractive than having an ectoskeleton, on her 2 lower appendages...
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#72761
06/16/2002 1:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 275 |
...this is no place for a philosophy thread
Whaddya mean? This is exactly the place for a philosophy thread...especially when it seeks to define specific terms, but especially if we are talking about "right and wrong" (one of the most miscellaneous subjects on the planet)
And may I add, philosophy is thoughtful inquiry concerning the source and nature of human knowledge--what could be a more wholesome topic!
And you were not planning to go through all of Kierkegaard's "Stages on Life's Way" or dissect his "Either/Or", were you?
A little bit of philosophy is preferable to some nasty things on this board anyway.
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#72762
06/16/2002 1:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the person know as Keiva, who recently posted on this thread, was banned, for flaming. he forced his way back into this forum by implied threats to Anu Garg, the founder of AWAD. this same person has also been know, for certain, to post under the names AphonicRants and KeivaCarpal.
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#72763
06/16/2002 1:26 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,636 |
Keiva, go away. You are not welcome here.
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#72764
06/16/2002 4:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Once upon a time, not so long ago, this was exactly the place for philosophical discussion. In fact, that was why most of us were here. It was a forum for discussion of ideas about words and about words as a means of expressing ideas.
Most of us left when it became clear that we would no longer be able to do that without daily - indeed, hourly - destructive and insulting interference.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#72765
06/16/2002 12:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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and all most any place, we accepted some word fun, like Geoff's pointing out ModestGoddess (MG, from here on, i think!) claimed to be pedantic, and broke that down to ped (feet) antic (tricky).. i clearly responded to Geoff post, by using his name, and like wise i too played with the word pedantic.. and said it meant ped (foot) ant (same) ic (a suffix that can mean "like"), and that MG was claiming to have ant like feet.
i don't think anyone here though i was 1) really talking about ants, or 2) think MG has an extoskeletan, or even the remote possiblity that she is an ant, or has 6 legs!
mind, though, looking at the subject line just now, i might go off on the tangent of Waxing.
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#72766
06/16/2002 1:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Go away, Keiva. You are not wanted here.
You raped my identity with your faux handle 'AphonicRants.'
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#72767
06/16/2002 1:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In chorus: Keiva, go away.
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#72768
06/16/2002 5:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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see http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=73305There you go again, ASp, repeating verbatim your same old song in six separate threads. If you can't have your way, you'll interrupt to poison any other discussion on this board. Spamming. dr. bill, see Ambrose Bierce's definition of "positive". Methinks thou dost protest too much. You are merely spamming.
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#72769
06/16/2002 5:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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telling the truth is not a flame war. the truth is not spam
Go away Keiva. You are not wanted.
The person called Keiva was banned, and forced his way back here by making or implying threats against Anu Garg.
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#72770
06/16/2002 5:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Keiva: Go away. You are not welcome here.
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#72771
06/16/2002 5:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#72772
06/16/2002 6:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Keiva: go away. You are not welcome here.
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#72773
06/16/2002 8:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
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on the human concept of "right."
So many things to so many people. So many things to the *SAME* people.
1) Right can mean correct, as in what one ought to do.
2) Right can also mean some ability or state existence that is guaranteed by some agency capable of doing so.
These are distinct ways I've seen the words used, but there are numerous variations of each. I think, however, these two main usages are somehow related, but I can't think how at the moment.
I'm reminded of a poem I once read in a high school textbook
(author is anonymous if I recall)
This is the grave of Mike O'Day
who died maintaining his right of way.
His right was clear, his will was strong,
but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
I could drone on, but I'll leave it at this for now.
k
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#72774
06/16/2002 8:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Sometimes a right is not enough. Hit them with the left also.
Keiva: Go away.
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#72775
06/16/2002 9:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Marilyn French, wrote a book, Beyond Power.
in the book she make the point that one can have power to, or power over.
I have personal power, (that is i control myself) I have the power to do things.. Including influence you by my behavior, logic, acts, writings, various means.
Personal Power, power to is a good thing.
Power over is different. as parent, i had power over my childern. i could and did decide their bed times, their schools, their clothing. by choices i made, i had some power of their choice of friends. as my children got older and more mature, they slowly build up personal power. as adults, i now have very little power over my children. and i rarely use the power i do have.
but there are many situation of people either having power over, or attempting to have power over, that are problems.
Our government, is of the people, for the people and by the people. it has some power over me, but largely only the power i chose to give it. If it abuses the power, i can try to vote them out of office.
all governments take power from the citizens. in some cases, the citizens have right about what, and how much power can be taken, in other cases, the power is wrenched away, and the governments power over its people is total.
the same can happen on a personal scale.
i own slaves, i have power over them, not just when they are minors, but forever. Power over... can be a problem.
the book is long, and sometimes seems to belabor points, but one problems is, neither power to, or power over are good or bad in them selves. it is how the power is used.
a large part of right or wrong is who's power is making it right or wrong? a child with personal power, might bonk another child on the head with a toy -- if the toy is a teddy bear, is one problem. if the toy is metal truck, it is another.
in this case, a parents power over the child, is more important than the childs power.
when that child grows up, it is the governments power over that is use when the truck is replaced with a brick..
Right and wrong in a social situations, is a functions of power.
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#72776
06/16/2002 10:21 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
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>Once upon a time, not so long ago, this was exactly the place for philosophical discussion. In fact, that was why most of us were here. It was a forum for discussion of ideas about words and about words as a means of expressing ideas.
I remember such a place.
It existed before Sat Aug 4 00:16:16 2001. After that date some of us were told what we could discuss and what we could not discuss, when some of us thought that this was a forum open for discussion for people anywhere in the world. I used to think that all the serious problems of this board started in September, when as I remember some of us were deeply concerned about other members of this board (but obviously not as much as the new guy in town). I now realise that because I was not around last August when the demolition derby started. Amazing, it took so few days to cause so much havoc.
No reply necessary
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#72777
06/17/2002 5:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
Interesting notion. Sounds kinda libertarian. I need some time to assimilate it.
k
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#72778
06/17/2002 5:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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well, its a 500 or so page book, with footnotes, and details.. and i have reduced it to a few paragraphs.. its an interesting read.. Ms french is better known for her fiction, in 1972 she had best seller with her book the woman's room and most of her fiction is really about how woman come to see that they have power, and how to use, but not abuse it... so her fiction is filled with the same ideas, played out in peoples lives..
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#72779
06/17/2002 11:15 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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"Meahwhile, how do we determine what is right?"
Does anyone know if this meaning (analogous to "correct") predates the legal meaning, as in legal or constitutional rights? The answer would have some bearing on Modest's question.
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#72780
06/17/2002 11:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 833 |
This is exactly the place for a philosophy thread
Thanks musick - et al - I guess I was just nervous about, um, being accused of posting where I shouldn't or starting a discussion I shouldn't....Old wound healing, I picked the scab, glad to see y'all rushing in with bandaids where I had feared to tread!
love to all,
mg
So....how DO we know what is "right"? My philosophy friend was talking about right behaviour, I think. Is this the "correct" version of "right"?
this also reminds me of the movie Clockwise, in which John Cleese's character gets hopelessly sidetracked en route to, um, I've forgotten where - deliver a speech at a boys' school, perhaps? Anyway, he keeps trying to direct people who are driving him places:
Cleese: Left.
Driver: Left?
Cleese: Right.
AAUGH!
Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.
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#72781
06/18/2002 12:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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<<is that the "correct" version of "right"?>>
It's certainly the version of "right" as "correct." Was your friend suggesting that legal/"human" rights -- or such rights per se -- were also things by virture of their being agreed on?
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#72782
06/18/2002 12:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 833 |
I don't think he was thinking of rights, thus I doubt he was thinking of things. I think he was thinking of the general concept of right.
F'rinstance, how do we know that killing someone is wrong? how do we know that it is right NOT to kill someone? (is perhaps a more apt way of putting it)
I suppose this is the right that comes from our reason and (supposedly) sets us apart from the dumb beasts. (and who said they were dumb, anyway, just because they don't speak a human language!)
Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.
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#72783
06/18/2002 1:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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"...the general concept of right..." (Modest)
Then he was talking about ethics and not about rights per se -- unless he was talking about, e.g. an (inalienable) right to life which would wronged by murder.
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#72784
06/18/2002 2:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Dear MG: Does a lion have a right to eat a lamb?
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#72785
06/18/2002 2:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 2,891 |
Ooof, I have some trouble following this type of philosophical discussion. My mind tries to wrap itself around an answer and I just can't get it out properly.
I think we know what is right or wrong when we realize that we would or wouldn't want to happen to us. For example, when a child gets a toy taken away from him, he feels upset. He then know that taking a toy away from somebody else will make them feel upset. We tell the child it is wrong to take a toy away and he associates making a person feel bad as being wrong.
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#72786
06/18/2002 2:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Bill, does a human have a right to eat a chicken. Ahhhh.
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#72787
06/18/2002 2:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Dear MG: Does a lion have a right to eat a lamb?
Dear Bill: Only if I don't get to the lamb first. Mmmmmmm.
Let us go in peace to love and serve the board.
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