#64859
04/10/2002 1:38 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Okay--I was looking at the old thread where tsuwm mentions Douglas Hofstadter. I decided to see if I could find a quotable source on (by) him. I got sidetracked to this intriguing site and learned about something called pataphysics, which has only been mentioned here once before, and in a thread so fine that I immediately decided to ressurrect it.
Queneau joined in 1950 the Collège of Pataphysique, the group of intellectuals and writers whose zany, tongue-in-cheek manner brought a sort of Brothers-Marxist approach to French philosophy. Pataphysics was created by poet and playwright Alfred Jarry (1873-1907), and is defined as the science of imaginary solutions, or the science which investigates not the laws of Nature, but the exceptions to those laws. http://www.themodernword.com/scriptorium/queneau.htmlI don't know anything about pataphysics or Alfred Jarry, so if anyone would care to enlighten me...
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#64860
04/10/2002 2:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Jackie: I tried reading that, but it snowed me under before I got half way through. I'm not fond of Joyce or Umberto Eco and their contrived obscurity perpetrators. There are other books more rewarding on which to expend my limited quota of reading capability.
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#64861
04/10/2002 3:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
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#64862
04/10/2002 3:33 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 10,542 |
"The science of imaginary solutions, which
symbolically attributes the properties of
objects, described by their virtuality, to
their lineaments" - Alfred Jarry
Joan was quizzical
studied pataphysical
science in the home...
[can you name this song/band without any clues? : ) ]
()
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#64863
04/10/2002 3:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
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#64864
04/10/2002 5:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477 |
Joan was quizzical
studied pataphysical
science in the home...
[can you name this song/band without any clues? : ) ]
No prob, bob! Easy-peasy! A cinch... oh... you want me to actually name it? 
Nah... let the others have a go!
Hev
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#64865
04/10/2002 9:31 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
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#64866
04/10/2002 10:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
their contrived obscurity perpetrators
Just a note to say I love this phrase.
k
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#64867
04/10/2002 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
"Late nights all alone with a test tube,
Oh, oh oh oh...
MAXWELL Edison, majoring in medicine, calls her on the phone,
Can I take you out to the pictures, Jo-o-o-oan?
But as she's getting ready to go,
A knock comes on the door..."
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#64868
04/10/2002 1:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428
addict
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addict
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The only pataphysicist I know of was Joan, but my namesake took care of her.
Light dawns on Marblehead! I have wondered for YEARS what that word was in Maxwell's Silver Hammer! Back in High School, my friend and I spent Typing class doing nothing but typing out the lyrics to Beatles songs, and we scratched our heads for hours on that lyric. I think we eventually decided it was "metaphysical", but we knew that wasn't it. I might have to look him up to let him know what pataphysical means. On a related note, is Alfred Jarry the same guy who wrote the truly bizarre play Ubu Roi?
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#64869
04/10/2002 1:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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contrived obscurity perpetrators
I think Joyce was obscure in much the same way that Bach was obscure. Onliest difference is Joyce used a medium in which excellence is not normally associated with non-verbal information.
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#64870
04/10/2002 3:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Great! Another one of those rare moments of when I get in first, and still no acknowledgement thereof.Well, Max...we could always award you a Hogwash® point for it! Your Happy Epeolatrist!
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#64871
04/10/2002 4:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 11,613 |
Flatlander, hold up. I haven't had the slightest idea of what any of the posts were talking about, until you mentioned the song title. The lyrics link I found gives:Joan was quizzical, studied metaphysical
Science in the home
Late nights all alone with a test-tube
Ohh-oh-oh-oh...
Is this link wrong, then? It's getlyrics.com.
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#64872
04/10/2002 6:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Is this link wrong, then?
in a word, yes. most folks have no idea that there is a word such as pataphysical, thus the common mondegreen.
()
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#64873
04/10/2002 9:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477 |
and I'll be taking my hammer with me.
Er, wouldn't that be your silver hammer, Max? 
Hev
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#64874
04/11/2002 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156 |
I always heard "pataphysical" and wondered what the H-E-double-hockey-sticks it meant! 
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#64875
04/15/2002 1:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
...late nights all alone
(withered testicles),
oh, oh-oh, oh.
stales
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#64876
04/15/2002 6:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
I have heard it suggested that the song "Maxwell Silver's Hammer" was inspired by the death of London playwright Joe Orton. Orton's relationship to the Beatles and the manner of his death certainly give the idea some credence.
Orton, whose life and death is chronicled in the book (and film by the same name) "Prick Up Your Ears," was a popular playwright in the 1960's, and the Beatles worked with him to develop a script for one of their films. Orton's screenplay was, like many of his stage plays, quite racy and the Beatles decided not to produce it.
Orton was the very definition of a modern swinging homosexual. While he was living with another man, he nonetheless frequently had sexual encounters with other men, and he kept a rather vivid diary. One night his lover read the diary, and subsequently murdered Orton with a hammer before committing suicide.
John Lahr, who contributes theatre reviews for The New Yorker magazine, edited Orton's diaries (mysteriously titled "The Orton Diaries"), and wrote the book "Prick Up Your Ears." (Which, when spoken aloud in a Cockney accent, is a naughty play on words that suggests the proclivities of the book's subject.) The film based on the book features actor Wallce Shawn as John Lahr, who is nearly a dead-ringer for Lahr. You might have seen Wallce Shawn (who is a playwright himself) in the very funny movie "The Princess Bride." He's the character who is always exclaiming "Inconceivable!" The part of Joe Orton is played by Gary Oldman, who also has a great resemblance to his real-life counterpart.
WARNING: shameless name dropping ahead
I got to meet John Lahr when I was a student in London. He came to speak to our class on modern British theatre. As I was writing a long paper on Orton I was excited to meet him. I had the honor of meeting Mr. Lahr at the university gate and I got to eat breakfast with him. Despite his similarity to the very-funny Wallace Shawn, Lahr is quite a serious man, and I had to stifle giggles as I recalled funny scenes from "Princess Bride."
Orton's plays are really funny. He loved to parody the "well-made play" such as Oscar Wilde wrote. his plays often combined the traditional comedy of manners with total anarchy, if you can imagine. A memorable line from one play ("Entertaining Mr Sloan" I think): "I had a normal childhood; I hated my father." I don't know of any films made of his plays.
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#64877
04/19/2002 4:41 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,065 |
See the imdb page on Joe Orton. ( http://us.imdb.com/Name?Orton,+Joe+(I)I've seen the films of Loot and Entertaining Mr. Sloane, and I think Loot has been televised as well. I've seen What the Butler Saw on stage and it was excrutiatingly funny. Asphyxiation from too much laughing was a definite possibility. Bingley
Bingley
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#64878
04/19/2002 4:58 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 45 |
Alex - I have very similar views on Orton (though can't claim to have as detailed knowledge of him) and especially the movie of "Prick Up Your Ears". A fascinating version of a fascinating subject. Must also mention the wonderful Alfred Molina, who played the embittered lover/murderer - he was top. And BTW - Full marks for knowing 1. Who Wallace Shawn is and 2. The existence of the delightful "The Princess Bride". Remember - "Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line" 
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#64879
04/19/2002 10:17 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
I'll have to investigate these Orton films. I had no idea there were any at all.
Anybody ever noticed how many real-life people Gary Oldman has portrayed in film, and how much in each role he resembles the actual person? Consider:
1. Sid Vicious ("Sid and Nancy")
2. Beethoven ("Immortal Beloved")
3. Lee Harvey Oswald ("JFK" -- admittedly not a dead ringer)
4. Joe Orton (see above)
Are there any others?
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#64880
04/19/2002 12:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320 |
A footnote on John Lahr: He wrote a fine book about his father, Bert Lahr, called "Notes on a Cowardly Lion."
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#64881
04/19/2002 2:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 428 |
He wrote a fine book about his father, Bert Lahr, called "Notes on a Cowardly Lion."
Completion of the Hulk Hogan >> Judy Garland Six Degrees of Seperation is left as an exercise for the reader.
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