#62601
03/27/2002 1:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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When we refer to musical beats being grouped in sets of twos and threes, is there an apostrophe that's required before the "s"? : two's and three's ??? How 'bout when you use the Arabic numeral? Is it beats in sets of 2's and 3's?
Thanks for providing the rule here,
WW
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#62602
03/27/2002 1:52 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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is there an apostrophe that's required before the "s"?
The purist would say no and that there is never any confusion between plural and possessive if you follow that rule. I want to know how many is there are in the preceding sentence?
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#62603
03/27/2002 1:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
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Certainly it is not correct to put an apostrophe between the numeral and the "s" in your example. I constantly castigate my students for writing, "In the 1870's ... ... " rather than, "... the 1870s." It is a plural, not a possessive.
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#62604
03/27/2002 2:21 PM
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Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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So, it would be: "Cross your ts and dot your is" instead of "Cross your t's and dot your i's"? Or: "Make sure you don't omit your 0s" instead of "Make sure you don't omit your 0's"? (To my way of reading the apostrophe seems to help rather than confuse without the apostrophe.)
Always,
WordWondering
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#62605
03/27/2002 2:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Posts: 320 |
What about number 3 on this list? http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.htmlI've always felt that an apostrophe clarifies the meaning of a sentence such as: I got three A's on my report card; as opposed to: I got three As on my report card. And similarly with numbers when we are referring to the numbers per se.
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#62606
03/27/2002 2:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Slithy Toves,
And that rule for apostrophes for plurals of numbers and letters is the one that I thought I'd heard somewhere along the way.
So, where does that leave us with R's catigation of the students for 1800s v. 1800's? Are dates considered to be numbers different from numbers functioning simply as numbers? And then musical beats would definitely be groups in sets of 2's and 3's according to the site you provided. But what about when you spell 'em out? Does the apostrophe number rule still apply? Beats in sets of two's and three's?
Still wondering,
WW
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#62607
03/27/2002 2:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The three citations at OneLook all document p's and q's as a plural noun with the apostrophes. This is from American Heritage: p's and q's
PLURAL NOUN: 1. Socially correct behavior; manners. 2. The way one acts; conduct: was told to watch his p's and q's. Here's a discussion of the possible origins of the term from Word Detective: http://www.word-detective.com/052699.html#psandqs
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#62608
03/27/2002 2:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
The best practice is to omit apostrophes in plurals unless necessary to clarify meaning.
A's instead of As might be appropriate because "as" is a word, but I don't see how anyone could mistake "2s" for a word instead of a plural of 2. I have noticed that the apostrophe is rarer than it was, I think because of the increased ability to alter fonts and text size in lieu of punctuation to clarify meaning. So too, have periods disappeared in abbreviations.
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#62609
03/27/2002 3:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Dear Wordwind,
I'd say:
1800's
2's and 3's
twos and threes.
Somehow they just look right. And the last are simply plurals that don't involve numerals or letters meant as letters. I'd never write, "I'm all at six's and seven's." (And where did that expression come from?)
Rhub: Please feel free to challenge.
slithy
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#62610
03/27/2002 4:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688 |
I'd never write, "I'm all at six's and seven's."
You would instead write, "I'm all at sixs and sevens."? The sevens looks ok to me, but not sixs or do we add es and make it sixes? Now I don't know which looks right anymore! [very confused-e]
EDIT: Our wonderful "Spell Check" feature here says its "sixes and sevens". But do we believe ænigma?
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#62611
03/27/2002 4:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
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Angel,
I'm feeling challenged here, but I'd say add -es rather than -s to any word ending in s, z, or x. So I'd definitely say sixes. The rule, as I recall, is to use -es when the new formation (plural or third-person form) adds a syllable (miss/misses; buzz/buzzes; six/sixes). I'll be happy to stand corrected, if anyone disagrees.
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#62612
03/27/2002 4:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,692 |
But do we believe ænigma?
Alway's.
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#62613
03/27/2002 5:13 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'll be happy to stand corrected, if anyone disagrees.
Look's to me like your setting correctly, slithy.
PS LOL dxb!!
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#62614
03/27/2002 6:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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OK, Slithy's given us a source at least. This is what I believe the rule to cover based on what we've posted here today:
If you're writing the number as a word, the plural doesn't require an apostrophe;
According to Slithy's source the numeral will require an apostrophe (and possibly this means that 1800's might be perfectly acceptable according to
Slithy's source)
And individual letters of the alphabet should have apostrophes for plurals, again according to Slithy's source.
So p's and q's and crossing t's and dotting your i's all have apostrophes along with beats in sets of 2's and 3's...but not twos and threes and sixes...
How's that?
WW
PS: I just realized that I've repeated exactly what Slithy's already written, but I'm just throwing this all out again on page 2 so's to keep things straight in m'min'. What's the rule about the period going inside of quotation marks? That doesn't count on m'min', does it? I mean, it shouldn't be "m'min.'," should it?[/white}
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#62615
03/27/2002 6:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#62616
03/27/2002 8:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
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addict
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WordWind....
bb...bb...bbbuttt.tt
Didn't you just say that?
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#62617
03/28/2002 1:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...or threes in two. I love the word hemiola to describe this, thanks be to Peter Schickele. (I didn't know it before, or either I forgot it, one)
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#62618
03/28/2002 1:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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How do you pluralize more than one "S"?...esses? S's? s's?
Ss? ss?
Or maybe we should just let ol' Gollum take it.....
esssssssssssssssssssssssessssssssssssssssssssssssss
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#62619
03/28/2002 12:50 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Whit,
Who's Gollum?
DubDub
PS: Angel, I have no idea how that second repetitive post made it onto the page, but I'll delete it. What's curious is the second repetitive post doesn't have the white part!
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#62620
03/28/2002 6:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Gollum is the nassssty creature in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings who is in love with the precioussss, my precioussssss.
Strunk and White sez to pluralize an s word:
1. Form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's. Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Thus write,
Charles's friend
Burns's poems
the witch's malice
Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names ending in -es and -is, the possessive Jesus', and such forms as "for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake."
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#62621
03/28/2002 6:17 PM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
I love the letter S, so sensual and sleek Curvaceous, slim and sexy, it curls across the page And starts so many fine words, like stirrup, stream and streak. O S! I love you so - with me you're all the rage You sum up all that's best in life - you stand for all things fine, Like sun and sand and sea and sex and other simple pleasures You summon up a simple smile on this visage that is mine Without you, life's less sibilant - with you, it's full of treasures! My lame-arse ode to a damn sexy letter.   
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#62622
03/28/2002 7:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#62623
03/28/2002 8:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Hemiola
Two 3:4 measures containing 3 distinct half notes, so that the middle note is tied across the measure line.
© 1995-2000 Eric W. Weisstein
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#62624
03/28/2002 9:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
Strunk and White sez to pluralize an s word:
1. Form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's
mg, I think you're contradicting yourself.
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#62625
03/29/2002 1:48 AM
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 833 |
Jazzie, you is right. I wrote the intro and then quoted S&W so the error is alllll mine. I luuuurrrve embracing my own mitsakes. That's the modest in me.
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#62627
04/03/2002 3:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thanks for those link's, Bingley. Specially liked the Oxford Companion one. It was clear and concise and gave me an idea of the relative acceptance of various practise's without being preachy.
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#62628
04/03/2002 4:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'd never write, "I'm all at six's and seven's."
Fair moon, to thee I sing,
Bright regent of the heavens,
Say, why is everything
Either at sixes or at sevens?
-- W. S. Gibert (with Sullivan), Pinafore
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