The phrase "by the same token" is in common usage here.
Is it used around the globe?
Is it a corruption of "buy the same token...."?
I don't know of the etymology but it is known in this part of the world so I'm guessing it has a UK derivation. It's common meaning is to imply 'on the other hand' so the corruption above doesn't hold with me.
It's common meaning is to imply 'on the other hand' so the corruption above doesn't hold with me.
I wouldn't say that its use is common in the UK - leastways, not these days - but it used to be in fairly frequent use years ago. However, to me it always seemed to have the connotation of, "springing from the same source." E.g: Understaffing means that many buses are late. By the same token, most of the staff are tired and surly."
It's common here, too, so i wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's a briticism. my best guess at its etymology would be something along the lines of this:
you put a token in a machine and you get one of various 'prizes' ~ all from the same machine, all of relatively equal value, but all deriving from the same (or similar) token. i think it just represents the mental (or verbal) process of offering a token--or path of thought--and coming up with varied (but comparable, and similarly derived) responses.
Rubrick:It's common meaning is to imply 'on the other hand'
MaxQ:That's how it's most often used when I hear it, too. It is often prefaced with "but"
I think the "but" is the thing that creates the inversion. I've often been told that "but" nullifies everything mentioned in the sentence so far (not sure I agree entirely). Anyhooo...
Bartleby says: IDIOMS: by the same token In like manner; similarly.
I would tend to use by the same token in the Bartleby way. "We have considered XYZ product. By the same token, I think we should evaluate ABC product." Having read this back to myself though, I can see how it might sound as if it's a but.. but it's intended to be saying "we should evaluate ABC product in the same way" ... Hmmm... Anyone confused? I am...
Mercy, people, it seems obvious to me, and one look at my thesaurus bears this out: "Token, n 1. indication, sign, evidence, manifestation, testimony, testament, symbol." (Roget, 1999.)
That's how it's most often used when I hear it, too. It is often prefaced with "but" Maybe this inversion of its meaning is an Irish thing, Rubrick? There's plenty of 'em here.
I've never really thought about it, Max, but it does ring true with other Irishisms so, on reflection, I s'pose you're right.
I just got to wondering about the phrase. To my way of thinking, there's an argument for both "by the same token" and "buy the same taken" - without changing the meaning or usage of the phrase.
The only example I'm aware of of a homophone giving the same meaning when used in a phrase....
a homophone giving the same meaning when used in a phrase....
Well, I can't disagree with that, stales, but I think it is happy coincidence, nevertheless - I have come across the phrase in C19 literature where the context equates closely to Jackie's excellent thesauric contribution. "Tokens" were well known in that period (and earlier) as a substitute for money, to be spent in "the company store" only. But these would not be bought, only used to buy things - analagous to caradea's idea of putting tokens in a machine. But I feel that the alternative meaning of "evidence", or a "sign" is the more likely source of the meaning of this phrase.
That is, the idiom means that a further conclusion is reached from the same argument or premise ["same token"] previously made -- metaphorically, your line of reasoning has produced two conclusions for the price of one.
Max notes: Something like 20-25% of all white NZers are of Irish descent...
I wouldn't be surprised if that same statistic held for USn's too... up to the 1960s, anyway, and depending on what one calls white (1/4 Irish, me own sef).
One hundred per cent of the time that I've heard the expression "by the same token" it was used in the context, as exampled below...
"Well, Clem is out of jail, I bet he learned a lesson." "Yeah but, by the same token, in jail they teach you better how to steal."
That is- A divergent possibility emanating from the same base. That is- from the same token (meaning small) of information, other likelihoods can be construed.
Say Faldage, how did you get your 9's and 6'es close together to make percentage signs?
by tells us: 'That's the end of the penny section'...Whatever does this mean?
Never heard the phrase used personally, but I would envision it comes from a hundred years or so when a seat on the trolley/tram/whatever cost more or less, depending on where you were in the vehicle (front or back). And there would be a ?variable or fixed line of demarcation between the two, thus the "end of the penny section" and the beginning of the more expensive seats...how's my imagination? (works just as well for seats in the theater, too.)
My sources don't address the specific phrase "by the same token," but the etymology of token suggests the origination of the phrase:
teach ... 1. "To teach or show, guide (obs senses), hence to guide educationally, to show to (someone) by way of instruction, derives, via ME techen, from OE teacan, akin to OE tacen, tacn, a token, whence, indeed, MRE taken, later token -- as still in E. With OE .. OFris .. and OHG ... MHG .... G ..., to provide with means of recognition or knowing.
and
TOKEN, a mark, sign, memorial, coin. ... allied to Teach. The base *taik answers to Idg. *doig, 2nd grade of *deig, which seems to be a variant of Idg. DEIK, to show, indicate;
This seems to be a case in which the phrase sprung from a direct use of the original meaning of the pertinent term, token, as a means of recognition or knowing, rather than from a metaphor based on the derivative use of token as a substitute currency or other symbol.
The penny section does come from a long time ago, but it's origins are actually quite simple. It's based on the fact that at some time one zone or section on public transport, probably the bus, cost one penny. A zone or section can be defined by the company however it likes, but it's usually distance-related. When you reached the end of the section or zone, you either stumped up for the next section or got off and walked.
Thanks for explanation there, Cap. This thread popped out of my sight for a while, so I didn't answer. My grandfather's tale to this idiom was much the same as what CK writes. The 'end of the penny section' refers to how a tram leaves town and enters a new zone on its route. I think the controller would call out something to this affect at the last stop before leaving the 'penny section'. You can use it euphemistically to a similar effect as 'That's all' or 'That's it', like so:
Child: Can't I have another biscuit? Parent: No, that's the end of the penny section, young man.
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