#58902
02/27/2002 12:08 PM
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In a recent thread I read a word I hadn't seen in donkey's years - pail.
When (and how) did bucket become pail?
And, for that matter, when did jug (or ewer) become pitcher?
Pitcher and pail are very much NA words not in use in Europe or (I think) the Antipodes. The only instance I can find of a use of the word both sides of the pond is the Jack and Jill nursery rhyme.
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#58903
02/27/2002 12:39 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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No definitive answer but an observation. To me a bucket means an old fashion container, made (by a cooper) of wood secured by bands of wood or metal. A pail is a modern bucket, made of metal, plastic, etc.
On the other hand, in my youth there was a garbage pail insert in an outside disposal container which was sunk in the ground, usually somewhere near your back entrance, and you put daily kitchen garbage in the pail outside and a garbage man came in a truck once a week and emptied the pail. In northern climes you had to be sure a path to the garbage pail and around the garbage container was shoveled for the garbage man or it didn't get collected.
Nowadays there are plastic bags and garbage/trash cans that you put out for curbside pickup. Far more sanitary but you must put the trash curbside. No longer do trash men enter the yard and take the can to trucks to empty then return them to where they picked them up!
WWII changed a lot of daily life.
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#58904
02/27/2002 2:28 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Re bucket and pail, I use both terms, although I think I favor the latter, and have no real distinction between the two as far as what they represent. Whether metal, plastic or wood, a bucket is a pail is a bucket.
To me, "jug" is an old-fashioned word encountered in song lyrics and books, and "ewer" is a crossword puzzle word. I gather that they are in common use in Ireland? Pitcher that!
Pail and pitcher both have L -> F -> ME histories, and I'm wondering if they are two words which were in established use by all English speakers a few hundred years ago but which the North Americans held to whilst the rest of the English speakers came to favor other terms?
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#58905
02/27/2002 2:43 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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North Americans held to whilst the rest of the English speakers came to favor other terms?
I usually use the word "pail" when referring to a sand pail, that is, a childrens' toy pail. Otherwise I prefer bucket. Mop bucket, wine bucket (official name: primary fermenter), ice cream bucket (4L - or approx 1 gallon). So maybe it's not a North Americanism, but a USnism. Any other Canucks wanna comment?
Aside: For some reason in Newfoundland they haven't discovered the various household uses for ice cream buckets so the 4L size is a squarish plastic container instead. I have a precious few ice cream buckets remaining from my time on the mainland, and I use them carefully. When they break I don't know what I'll do to replace them!
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#58906
02/27/2002 2:51 PM
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Pail and bail both have Latin origins, so were not orginated in US. Bail can also refer to hoop hand of pail.
Bucket usually refers to a wooden pail, as wow said.'The old oaken bucket that hung in the well". There used to be pails with tight fitting tops that were used to bring beer home from the tavern, and small boys got tips for "rushing the growler".
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#58907
02/27/2002 2:52 PM
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To me, "jug" is an old-fashioned word encountered in song lyrics and books, and "ewer" is a crossword puzzle word. I gather that they are in common use in Ireland? Pitcher that!
Jug is very much in use here and always has been as far as I know. It's quite common to ask for a jug of water in a restaurant and a milk jug is to be found on all breakfast tables.
A ewer is less common. Until just after the Second World War it was used (with a bowl) for washing. Any older generation people who have kept theirs use them for watering plants and the like.
Pail and pitcher both have L -> F -> ME histories, and I'm wondering if they are two words which were in established use by all English speakers a few hundred years ago but which the North Americans held to whilst the rest of the English speakers came to favor other terms?
There is mention in Shakespeare's works of a Toby jug - a grotesque form of designed pottery beer mug in the shape of a seated man - and this seems to have taken England - if not the rest of Britain and Ireland - by storm. The US was spared from this form of art and chose to adopt the pitcher instead.
A number of US theme restaurants have sprung up around Europe and a couple have landed here (with little success, I may add). One possible reason for their demise may be down to their selling quart pitchers of beer for a fixed price.
1) "What's a quart?" is the first thing that will be asked by the patrons.
2) "How many pints is that?" is the second.
3) "That's bleedin' robbery" is the blunt comment when realising that the price/pint is extortionate.
And finally (bringing Irish logic into the fold)
4) "Bring us it in a jug next time. That'll be bigger!".
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#58908
02/27/2002 7:35 PM
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#58909
02/27/2002 7:39 PM
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Would USns say, "it's pailing down"?
No, but I wouldn't say, "it's bucketting down" either. "It's pouring" or "it's raining buckets" or something.
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#58910
02/27/2002 8:41 PM
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enthusiast
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There's a good Bob Dylan tune that starts, "Buckets of rain, buckets of tears, I got buckets coming out of my ears, Buckets of moonbeams in my hand ..." - somehow, "pails" would pale in comparison, donchathink?
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#58911
02/28/2002 4:03 AM
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veteran
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So far as I know, the common usage is that a bucket or pail is a container for liquids (but may also be used for granular solids, like grain, etc.), without a lid, which has either a bail or handles on the rim to pick it up by. Also, a pail or bucket generally holds at least a gallon; five gallons more common.
A jug, pitcher or ewer is a container for liquids only and usually has a lip to aid in pouring. It may have a lid. In my understanding of the terms, the jug is the smallest, the ewer the largest (usually at least a quart and can be quite large).
However uncommon some of these terms may be, it gets even more outré when it comes to ecclesiastical usage. In Anglican churches, there is usually a good-sized (i.e., 1 to 2 gallons) brass ewer (that's the word used to refer to it) near the font which is filled with water. When a baptism takes place, the water is poured from the ewer into the font. The wine for communion is brought by the acolyte in one or more decanters (usually glass) to the deacon or priest, who then pours it into one or more flagons (yes, that's the word, otherwise archaic), which are small pitchers (usually silver) with hinged lids, holding maybe 2 cups. There is also a flagon of water. The deacon or priest pours wine from the flagon into a chalice, adds a small amount of water from the other flagon. On major feasts or other occasions when a large number of people (hundreds) are expected to communicate, there may be a silver ewer of wine instead of the decanter(s), holding a quart or more, from which the wine is poured into flagons. Interesting how various size containers are used and that archaic words are used for them.
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#58912
02/28/2002 9:34 AM
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Wow, Bob. Thanks for that! It certainly cleared up a lot for me.
It's funny that in some countries a commonly used word is archaic in others. This has been brought up quite a bit in this thread. Now we have another!
who then pours it into one or more flagons (yes, that's the word, otherwise archaic)
I looked up the definition of flagon on Atomica and, I have to say, I had never heard of that ecclesiastical definition before.
A flagon is quite a common term here and, probably, in Britain too (we having adopted it over time). However, its common use is as a defining measurement of bottles of spirits. A flagon is a half bottle and a nagon a quarter bottle. (Don't ask me where nagon came from!).
Presumably these terms were adopted from the ecclesiastical ritual of mixing water and wine in 'equal' proportions to make a sum total (I do remember from my church going days that some older priests leaned more towards the wine and added only a few drops of water to their spiritual tipple).
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#58913
02/28/2002 10:33 AM
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No, but I wouldn't say, "it's bucketting down" either.The only person I ever heard say this was my mother. But she was always coining new words. 
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#58914
03/01/2002 8:59 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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In Zild the flagon has long been associated with a half-gallon bottle with a screw top typically used for holding beer. [  hanging out -e] Since the demise of the 750ml bottle and its replacement with 330ml cans and bottles, the flagons I've seen in recent years have usually been full of "fill-your-own" sherry, cheap rotgut that only an alcoholic could truly appreciate.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#58915
03/01/2002 1:05 PM
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Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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...now where is the vessel with the pestle? And who broke the chalice from the palace?  
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#58916
03/01/2002 5:28 PM
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Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Oh Kaye, bean!  Get it?
--Got it.
Good!
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#58917
03/01/2002 6:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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the flagons I've seen in recent years have usually been full of "fill-your-own" sherry, cheap rotgut that only an alcoholic could truly appreciate.
And just how many of these have you seen, sir? [Ah-hh, payback is sweet, she said.)
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#58918
03/01/2002 6:33 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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The difference between Pail and Bucket is, nobody ever kicks the Pail.
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#58919
03/01/2002 6:55 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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How dear to my heart are the scenes of my childhood
When fond recollection presents them to view
The orchard, the meadow, the deep tangled wildwood,
And ev'ry loved spot which my infancy knew
The wide spreading pond, and the mill that stood by it,
The bridge and the rock where the cataract fell;
The cot of my father, the dairy house nigh it,
And e'en the rude bucket that hung in the well.
The old oaken bucket, the iron bound bucket,
The moss covered bucket that hung in the well.
The moss covered bucket I hailed as a treasure,
For often at noon, when returned from the field,
I found it the source of an exquisite pleasure,
The purest and sweetest that nature can yield.
How ardent I seized it, with hands that were glowing,
And quick to the white pebbled bottom it fell
Then soon, with the emblem of turth overflowing,
And dripping with coolness, it rose from the well.
The old oaken bucket, the iron bound bucket,
The moss covered bucket that hung in the well.
Dear Wordwind: If you use this, avoid the version that has a chorus:
"The old oaken bucket,
bucket,
bucket...
Some wise guy always says: "F-word it"
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#58920
03/01/2002 7:41 PM
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enthusiast
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nobody ever kicks the Pail
Except the cow.
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#58921
03/01/2002 8:09 PM
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Like the cow that started the great fire in Chicago.
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#58922
03/01/2002 8:40 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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bucket/pailIt seems I've always used bucket and pail, interchangeably, except for certain circumstances. a) At a well it was always a water bucket. b) The kids game we played was always kick-the-bucket. c) When I worked as a mate on a boat, or on any boat, it's always a bucket or chum bucket. d) At the tavern we'd always order a bucket of mussels or a bucket of clams, steamed...and one bar once featured a bucket of beer, five or six of those little 6 oz. bottles on a heap of ice in a bucket for a special price (course, you felt like a bit of slosh with a whole bucket of beer sitting in front of you, but, hey!...anything to save a buck, right?) e) Kick the bucket or kicking the bucket for someone dying...never kick the pail. f) It's in the bucket, we've got the deal made, we've got the game won, it's all sewn up....we got it made! g) But for child's beach toys here at the shore in "our neck of the woods," it's always pail and shovel or beach pail. And mebbe, upon reviewing all of this, there's something here about size. Maybe, in many instances, a bucket is perceived to be larger than a pail. I don't want a pail of gold, I want a bucket of gold! (or a Pot'o'Gold at the end of the rainbow in keepin' with the season ). I guess that's why with food items, and in the spirit of merchandising, it's always a bucket'o'butter, etc...because it sounds like more than a pail.
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#58923
03/01/2002 8:56 PM
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At a well it was always a water bucket.
Me too... but older usage may have been different:
Jack and Jill
Went up the hill,
To fetch a pail of water
Come to think of it, why would one seek water *atop the hill? Wouldn't the water, whether in well or rivulet, typically be at the lower ground?
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#58924
03/01/2002 9:23 PM
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Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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So far as I'm aware, from a modern UK point of view, bucket and pail are interchangeable - there is possibly a regional variation in usage, but I'm not aware of it.
Both words come from Old English
- Pail from pćgell, which meant "gill" (a small liquid measure - 1/8 pint [c.f.Middle Dutch pegel = measure])
- bucket is from Middle English or Anglo French and is a "container for drawing, holding or carrying water"
So far as English usage is concerned, it probably depends on where you were brought up as to what is right:
As to American usage - I've no idea! They have taken English and preserved some bits we've forgotten and which would by now be lost, and converted some bits which we think would have been well left alone!
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#58925
03/01/2002 9:29 PM
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Dear Keiva: Wells sometimes are found in unusual places. I've never seen one at the top of a hill, but I have seen many a good ways up the side of a hill. I lived six months in any old house in Port Deposit Maryland, that was very high above the Susquehanna, and had almost five gallons a minute constantly running in kitchen sink from a spring that was not a whole lot higher than the foundation of the house.
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#58926
03/01/2002 9:37 PM
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"As to American usage - I've no idea! They have taken English and preserved some bits
we've forgotten and which would by now be lost, and converted some bits which we think
would have been well left alone! "
I don't know, RC. For instance, I could easily make a bucket, just as the oltimers had to make their own.
No way could I make a pail.
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#58927
03/01/2002 9:45 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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#58928
03/01/2002 9:57 PM
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But Max, shouldn't you have expressed that excellent pun in pale type?
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#58929
03/01/2002 11:00 PM
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I've been soaking my pillow with tears for several nights, because nobody noticed a fine Americanism:
Rush the growler : to go to the local bar or beer tap and fill a round lunch pail with draft beer. In olden days, fathers would often send their kids to rush the growler. See growler.
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#58930
03/03/2002 3:42 PM
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Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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For instance, I could easily make a bucket, just as the oltimers had to make their own.
No way could I make a pail.
I'm sure you could make a pail imitation of a bucket, Dr Bill?
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#58931
03/04/2002 7:39 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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> "Bring us it in a jug next time. That'll be bigger!".
I often drive past a large poster advertisement for an Edinburgh "heavy drinking - late night establishment". It says in large letters "big jugs, well hung". I can only assume that it relates to the way that the pitchers (to USn's) are arranged over the bar.
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#58932
03/04/2002 7:43 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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So far as I know, the common usage is that a bucket or pail is a container for liquids ...
I have never used "pail" except when reciting Jack and Jill as a child. I would get a bucket of water.
In Scotland "bucket" is also used for what I would call a "bin" for rubbish (never garbage).
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#58933
03/04/2002 11:03 AM
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Hi, Jo, it's nice to see you posting. You reminded me of something I've been wondering (not very hard) about. You-all say "rubbish"--does that refer to anything you throw away? Where I live, we sometimes make a distinction: trash is what goes into, say your office or bedroom wastebasket, and garbage refers to uneaten food, empty meat wrappers, etc., that go into your kitchen garbage can. (Some people say garbage pail!) Sometimes we throw trash into the garbage can (which is also what we call the big containers that we haul out front to be picked up), but seldom is "garbage" thrown into a wastebasket.
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#58934
03/04/2002 11:15 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>You-all say "rubbish"--does that refer to anything you throw away? Yes - it is all rubbish where I come from. Never ever trash or garbage - I hadn't realised that there was a difference in the words. I'd put different kinds of rubbish in the kitchen bin to the office bin but it'd still be rubbish in a bin. The dustbin is the thing that the dustbin men (or more correctly refuse collectors) collect. Ours have been replaced with wheelie bins that are wheeled out and fit onto specially designed lorries http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/cewebs/contain.htm
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#58935
03/04/2002 4:15 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Where I live, we sometimes make a distinction: trash is what goes into, say your office or bedroom wastebasket, and garbage refers to uneaten food, empty meat wrappers, etc., that go into your kitchen garbage can.
The distinction being, as I understand it, that "garbage" refers to organic matter -- or more specifically to the kind of waste which, if left unattended over time, will develop distinct and unpleasant odors or rotting.
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#58936
03/04/2002 5:16 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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From a public health standpoint the difference is important. Careless disposal of garbage, meaning food residues , may increase rat numbers.
Incidentally, I object use of "rat population". Some people may be rats, but no rats are people.
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#58937
03/04/2002 5:30 PM
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Rubrick notes: There is mention in Shakespeare's works of a Toby jug
When I was a lad, we had an Englishman who lived with us for a while who had a collection of these particular dust-collectors (always with a pipe in mouth and a foaming mug of beer in hand). He told me they depicted a lush of English extraction, by the name of Toby Philpot (as in fill th' pot wif ale, I persume). I'd no idea that Toby's illustrious history extended back so far.
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#58938
03/04/2002 6:20 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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trash or garbage - I hadn't realised that there was a difference in the wordsNor I, and we use the word garbage all the time, to mean everything you throw away, organic or otherwise. So I guess to a western Canadian, the trash/garbage distinction is: garbage is anything you throw away, and if you use the word "trash", we know you're from the US!
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#58939
03/04/2002 7:04 PM
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enthusiast
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I won't speak for all of Ontario, but I agree with Bean - garbage is anything I throw away. As a synonym for garbage, trash sounds a little more refined. But, to tell the truth, I tend to interpret it figuratively, as something or someone trashy (eg., 'that book is trash!', "She's My Eurotrash Girl", trailer park trash, etc.)
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#58940
03/04/2002 7:58 PM
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Agreed that in many contexts, trash and garbage are used interchangeably.
In some contexts, however, it makes a difference. For example, in the management of an office building or shopping center, differing disposal procedures may be used, if only because it's particularly important to get remove biodegradable "garbage" quickly.
In that context at least, practitioners are careful to use trash and garbage as distinct terms.
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#58941
03/04/2002 8:59 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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