#56789
02/13/2002 8:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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As I was walking to my car after class yesterday, my eye was caught by an American flag waving in the wind. I idly thought about the bold patterns and colors of our flag, and remembered the name we sometimes call it-- Old Glory. This, in turn, made me wonder what other informal (or perhaps formal) names are used for flags of the world. I know only a few, the Union Jack being one example. Anyone care to add to the list?
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#56790
02/13/2002 9:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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#56791
02/13/2002 9:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2002
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Y'all caint forgit the Stars 'n' Bars. Right there in the back window of the pickup.
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#56792
02/13/2002 9:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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TEd
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#56793
02/13/2002 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
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Isn't the Japanese flag sometimes referred to as the Rising Sun?
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#56794
02/13/2002 10:51 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
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veteran
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Old Glory, Stars and Stripes ... these colors don't run
Interesting question, Rapunzel. Americans generally are known to be more overtly patriotic than the citizens of most other countries. So it should not come as a surprise that the Yanks have more terms of endearment for their flag than anyone else. In fact, in some english speaking countries, the term "flag wavers", describing people who indulge in displays of patriotic fervor, usually to distract attention from their real agenda, is a pejorative term. There is a famous quote on this subject. Who said? "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
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#56795
02/13/2002 10:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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#56796
02/14/2002 12:15 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
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Who said? "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."
Wrong Johnson, Max. In was Samuel Johnson (Boswell's Life, April 7, 1775).
However, Johnson recognized that a principle may be perfectly valid, and is not responsible for the idiots or schoundrels who may espouse it. The full quote from Boswell:
Patriotism having become one of our topicks, Johnson suddenly uttered, in a strong determined tone, an apophthegm, at which many will start: "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self-interest.
In a more humorous vein is Ambrose Bierce's gloss on Johnson. "In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first."
For another gloss: "No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of
patriots." -- Barbara Ehrenreich
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#56797
02/14/2002 12:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
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Who said, "patriotism is a pernicious, psycopathic form of idiocy"? He also said "patriotism is the conviction that your country is superior because you were born in it." That was George Bernard Shaw.
Unlike Johnson, who attacked phony patriots, Shaw took the absolutist position that there is never any such thing as admirable patriotism.
Neither Shaw quotation made it into bartleby.
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#56798
02/14/2002 1:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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#56799
02/14/2002 2:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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#56800
02/14/2002 4:25 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
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> Americans generally are known to be more overtly patriotic than the citizens of most other countries
Right on plutarch.
I'd say the Poms are right up there as well (one guy in my office - a Pom) even has "Land of Hope and Glory" as his mobile's ring tone.
As per the comment above, "flag waver" is a derogatory term here - akin to "bleeding heart", "tree hugger" etc.
Like many Australians I suspect, I don't have a problem with overt displays of patriotism (more's the better I say), but it's not something that we do in Australia. Same with clutching the breast during the anthem or holding a corner of a flag - doesn't happen (there are a few sportspeople that do it, but it's not the rule - we are taught to stand to attention during the anthem. Probably a British 'stiff upper lip' sort of thing).
As has been pointed out previously, many Ozzies don't know ALL the words of the National Anthem. And, if they do, I bet they are unsure how many stars are on the flag. Or how many points there are on the big star - or the little ones for that matter. Or why. As for being able to pick it from the NZ flag when the two are flying side by side......70% maybe.
It's probably a rejection of the British history and aspects of 'the flag' (I've never heard it called anything else). Many these days are not impressed by the presence of the Union Jack. (Not in sufficient quantities to do anything about it I might add......).
Nevertheless we love our country just as much as anybody else - smug in the knowledge that it IS the best place in the world. Everybody else just thinks they've got it good. We know we DO.
stales
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#56801
02/14/2002 1:24 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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I'd say the Poms are right up there as well (one guy in my office - a Pom) even has "Land of Hope and Glory" as his mobile's ring tone.
*Way, way out of date as an observation on mainland UK as far as I would register, stales - I doubt if this is true of more than one in a hundred people under the age of 50. Bear in mind, also, the strange effect of expatriate communities or peoples the world over - they tend to become "more English than England" about whatever are their respective roots.
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#56802
02/14/2002 1:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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I suppose we sometimes refer to the Canadian flag as The Maple Leaf. For obvious reasons.  There's an old song called "The Maple Leaf Forever" which I periodically play to death on the piano.
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#56803
02/14/2002 2:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,072 Likes: 2
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I recall that Scott Joplin wrote (among others) "The Maple Leaf Rag" - any connection?
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#56805
02/14/2002 4:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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Joplin also wrote marches, I believe, which made me think of Sousa. Some years ago some IDIOT took the liberty of adding words to some of Sousa's best-known marches, including the Washington Post March.
The first line:
A Washington post is an important post...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH
TEd
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#56806
02/14/2002 4:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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"The Maple Leaf Rag" - any connection?Not sure, since I don't know how The Maple Leaf Rag goes. However, I have found a site with the LYRICS of The Maple Leaf Forever The Maple Leaf Forever - Lyrics
In Days of yore,
From Britain's shore
Wolfe the dauntless hero came
And planted firm Britannia's flag
On Canada's fair domain.
Here may it wave,
Our boast, our pride
And joined in love together,
The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
The Maple Leaf Forever.
[CHORUS]
The Maple Leaf
Our Emblem Dear,
The Maple Leaf Forever.
God save our Queen and heaven bless,
The Maple Leaf Forever.
At Queenston Heights and Lundy's Lane
Our brave fathers side by side
For freedom's home and loved ones dear,
Firmly stood and nobly died.
And so their rights which they maintained,
We swear to yeild them never.
Our watchword ever more shall be
The Maple Leaf Forever
[CHORUS]
Our fair Dominion now extends
From Cape Race to Nootka Sound
May peace forever be our lot
And plenty a store abound
And may those ties of love be ours
Which discord cannot sever
And flourish green for freedom's home
The Maple Leaf Forever
[CHORUS]However, it's hard to compare to The Maple Leaf Rag without the music. (Actually, it's a bit cheesy either way. Just fun to play on the piano.) I'll work on finding an online version of the song. EDIT: Here's a site with the lyrics, and you can click to hear a terrible MIDI version of the melody. Whatever works! http://ingeb.org/songs/indaysof.html
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#56807
02/14/2002 4:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Not sure, since I don't know how The Maple Leaf Rag goes.MIDI files at http://www.trachtman.org/ragtime/ -- also includes sheet music for this particular rag. Maple Leaf Rag was Joplin's first commercial success and kicked off the ragtime era. One of my favorites (also on that site) is Magnetic Rag, his last composition, which for years was difficult to find becuase of copyright matters.
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#56808
02/14/2002 11:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 477
addict
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addict
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Posts: 477 |
Nevertheless we love our country just as much as anybody else - smug in the knowledge that it IS the best place in the world. Everybody else just thinks they've got it good. We know we DO.
Aaah, stales I'm standing here with one hand on my bleeding heart, the other clutching the corner of the Aussie flag and saying "Hats off" (cross-threading) to you ... I couldn't have said it better m'self  .
Wearing a black band on one of those very patriotic arms, mourning the loss of my hero Steve Waugh as Limited Overs Cricket Captain.  He was robbed!
Hev
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#56809
02/16/2002 3:17 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
For BelM's benefit, I have to give you an anecdote.
The powers that be at the Baltimore baseball park, officially known as Oriole Park at Camden Yards, parcel out the honor of singing the national anthem before games to various groups, one of which is our church choir. On one memorable occasion, for one reason or another they were asked to sing the Canadian anthem as well, so they followed up The Star Spangled Banner with O Canada sung in French. Guess the Orioles were playing the Expos.
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#56810
02/16/2002 3:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
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Hey, how nice are they!!! I would have cried.
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#56811
02/16/2002 8:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
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Here's a bit of trivia for yez all. When first written by George M Cohan the title of the patriotic song about the American flag was "You're A Grand Old Rag" but general sentiment made him change to "You're A Grand Old Flag." [re] Later : Looking to confirm I was not repeating a myth, I came across this link which confirms the above. (about half way down the page.) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9910/cohan_bio.html
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#56812
02/16/2002 9:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
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byb, your story and bel's response put me in mind of a trip to a baseball game early last summer, when our White Sox were hosting the Mariners
The Mariners' leadoff hitter, Ichiro Suzuki, is the first japanese major-league postition-player (and a star; he won the MVP at season end, I believe). Suzuki was a rookie here, but had been an established star in Japan and a mediagenic darling; something like a Michael Jordan figure.
He drew an amazing crowd. The section I sat in was almost solidly packed with Japanese fans (many of whom spoke little English). So were the section to my left, and the section to my right. A tremendous camaraderie developed among we fans -- and by the sixth inning, even the beer-vendors and hot-dog vendors had picked up enough to call out their wares in Japanese! Nihongo hotu-dogu!!!!
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#56813
02/16/2002 10:12 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
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and Woody Guthry, first wrote This land is your land, this land is my land, with different lyrics, as a satire. He was unhappy about all the radio air time "America the Beautiful" was getting.
having been driven out of Okalahoma by the dust storms, and toss about, he was at times an angry man. but as he looked at his harsh, critical words, he realize, he was mad at the capitalist, and corporations, and he rewrote it. and tried to make a better song than A t B. (a detail i remember from his biography.. the last years of his life, Woody lived in NY, (Queens, actually) and died in here)-- the thing about him, is, almost every state can claim his as their own!)
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#56814
02/17/2002 4:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
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They actually "buried" him in the open, and every winter the Beach Boys sing about him:
My Woody's outside, covered with snow
New York's a lonely town.....
TEd
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#56815
02/17/2002 8:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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In Zild I think we're deeply suspicious of overt displays of patriotism. When I was at school every school had a flagpole which was only used to fly the NZ rag at half-mast when someone who was considered to be something of a local hero karked it. It was innocent of any ornamentation at any other time. I remember the desultory slap of the ropes used to hoist the flags against the pole itself more than anything else.
We wonder when we see national flags flying. What's the problem? Who's died? Is there a war on that no one told us about? My funnybone was in overtime the whole time I was in America
I used to walk to work through Parliament every day when I worked in Wellington. Every couple of weeks, the parliamentary flagpole minder would be out there hard at work putting up flags for various countries, depending on which dignitaries were showing up for a cheap lunch that day. The Zildish flag would always fly from the top of Parliament, but you forgave them that one; too many MPs need a visual reminder of where they live.
Our national anthem gets aired very rarely. It has none of the musical complexities of "The Star-Spangled Banner", it has little of the punch of "Advance, Australia, Backwards", it has none of the innate majesty of "God Save The King/Queen (pick one)", it has little of the inanity of most other national anthems (e.g. did Canada NOT exist before Wolfe went and had his ticket punched on the Heights of Abraham, for Gawd's sake?). I remember the words of ours perfectly:
"Trod-on nations, smell my feet.
Chew my toenails, aren't they sweet?"
Seriously, though, we suffer the same basic superiority complex as Australia (although, obviously, with more justification): Who the hell would want to live anywhere else? [he said, writing from the wilds of deepest, darkest England]. We don't need the patriotic fervour which the US whips itself up into. We don't need to constantly remind ourselves of who we are and what we stand for (although usually that's because we don't know). Whatever Helen says, I suppose.
It's all bollocks, anyway!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#56816
02/17/2002 9:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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Maple Leaf Rag was Joplin's first commercial success and kicked off the ragtime era. The notion that the Ragtime era (or any other era (for that matter)) was kicked off by a specific composition (albeit as important as The Maple Leaf Rag or Scott Joplins career in this case) is generalized historical ridiculousness... especially within the theoretical confines of what a *rag is. I suppose you can find one that kicked off the Jazz era?!? Or more specifically, you can tell us when *it stopped.  Speaking of flags and ridiculousness; the battered and torn flag from the top WTC should be either ceremoniously burned, as is the *correct way do dispose of it, or possibly hung in the Smithsonian as a symbol of history. The US parade-ing it in front of the whole world whenever the chance arises is far from patriotic... at least within consistent definitions. Martyrdom is a direct descendant of pride. Anonymous, 2002
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#56817
02/17/2002 9:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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I suppose you can find one that kicked off the Jazz era?!? Or more specifically, you can tell us when *it stopped.
What? Jazz stopped? Damn, why didn't someone tell me sooner?
Actually, I think the last bastion of traditional jazz was Louis Armstrong's Hello, Dolly, which was the last jazz song to top the pop music charts, even beating the Beatles.
'Course, you still had Miles Davis's Kind of Blue, which sold more than any other jazz album. Maybe the "end" was when he sold out to pop culture. When music came out on the other side of the 70s, smooth jazz was the dominant form, and most people don't like Kenny G, the main flag bearer for the genre. See, I'm not totally off-topic
Wynton Marsalis is fairly well known, and jazz bands are common in high schools, so it's not totally dead.
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#56818
02/17/2002 9:41 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
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What do you mean Jazz stopped?!. Tell that to the thousands and thousands of people that come to the Montréal Jazz Festival every spring. It is a huge event. Here's a link if you are interested. http://montrealjazzfest.com
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#56819
02/17/2002 9:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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...Kenny G, the main flag bearer for the genre. (E.A.)You'll have to be more specific than that! 
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#56820
02/17/2002 10:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
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keiva: The Maple Leaf Rag was Joplin's first commercial success and kicked off the ragtime era. musick: The notion that the Ragtime era (or any other era (for that matter)) was kicked off by a specific composition is generalized historical ridiculousness... Appreciate your polite disagreemnt with me, musick, but trust me: I checked, and the authorities share my view. It is particularly important because of the historical importance of ragtime, "the first truly indigenous popular music in the United States, and the first music that actually spawned entertainment as the viable business enterprise it has become today." Maple Leaf Rag ... It was an immediate hit, selling more than a million copies of sheet music in the next few years. ... its popularity marks the beginning of the ragtime era
1899: Scott Joplin's "Maple Leaf Rag" is published, sparking an international craze for Ragtime's syncopated rhythmshttp://www.dlib.org/dlib/september01/09featured-collection.htmlhttp://www.wcal.org/archives/dramerica/america_mapleleafrag.htmlhttp://makeashorterlink.com/?T41625D6
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#56821
02/17/2002 11:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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#56822
02/18/2002 1:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Finally! A Zild anthem I can relate to! BTW, didn't the alleged author of the original hail from your turangawaewae?Well, stamping ground if not marae, anyway ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#56823
02/18/2002 2:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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Didn't mean to lead you astray, CK, but The Maple Leaf Forever is not our national anthem. (That honour goes to O Canada, which was originally written by a couple of French-Canadians, in fact!) It's just a vaguely patriotic (and upon re-reading, a bit Anglo-Saxon oriented) song about the maple leaf. Apparently (the government web page gives info) it wasn't much loved by Francophones, but was pretty popular outside Québec. I only posted about it because it's on my current rotation of "songs to play to death on the piano".
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#56824
02/18/2002 7:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 21
stranger
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stranger
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Posts: 21 |
TEd quoth: They actually "buried" him in the open, and every winter the Beach Boys sing about him:
My Woody's outside, covered with snow
New York's a lonely town.....Gosh! I read that post to my husband, and he cringed. Down here in de souf, a "woody" is a -- oh, sorry. This reply actually belongs under that puppetry thread.  Tsyganka
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#56825
02/19/2002 10:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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Your use of the word "authorities" is what lacks trust from me... of course I trust you believe your *proofs have backing. Maple Leaf Rag ... It was an immediate hit, selling more than a million copies of sheet music in the next few years. ... its popularity marks the beginning of the ragtime era So when exactly do you/they mark the beginning of the ragtime "era", when "it" sold the millionth copy? It is interesting that your 'so-called' authorities make such a clean point in time when actually® ragtime music, specifically "syncopated" piano music, was popular for "quite a while" before Joplin's Maple Leaf. It's about the words used to explain, not the obvious facts. History continues to make its notches in the wall as it seeks to understand things out of context and teach them that way, which is, as I first said, generalized historical ridiculouness (probably not the 'best' words to describe "it"). I suppose you still believe Columbus discovered America? I suppose you'd also believe we are now in the post 9/11 terrorist era (as opposed to the pre-9/11 terrorists era)? I'd be more inclined to use the words 'we are in the post Kyoto(sp?) treaty era'. Convenient definitions of understanding history are just that to and for those that use them. I'm not ignoring a specific events significance, but if you look at the nice little collection of information included in your "shorterlink" source it only has one reference to ragtime music. I hope my point is becoming clearer. You and I use words differently and understand them differently. It would be arrogant of me to not attempt to understand your *perspective... but that does include *looking beyond the words used.
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#56826
02/20/2002 12:30 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
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isn't a woody a 1948 jeep, gussed up with wooden panels on the side?
or if not a jeep some sort of station wagon? from back when the idea of a station wagon was a vehicle you used to pick up stuff delivered F.O.B. (Hi ya Seattle!) to the RR station.
and as for where woody guthry is buried.. i don't have a clue. he died on the (i used to know the floor)floor of Credmore hospital. its with in walking distance (a long walk, but not a very long walk)
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#56827
02/20/2002 11:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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isn't a woody a 1948 jeep, gussed up with wooden panels on the side? or if not a jeep some sort of station wagon?
In my vocabulary it is a station wagon with wooden panels on the side. I get the feeling we should get asking around to get a feel for the regional variations in use of the term "woody". Non-naughty uses, that is!
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