#56185
02/10/2002 12:16 PM
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How many of you refer to the words of a single song as its lyric?
And how many refer to the same as its lyrics?
I've been corrected here by my language king in my reference to the song's words as its "lyrics," where I should have referred to the song's "lyric." This was news to me, but I do love having my language turn toward a new place.
Just wondering whether any of you have made the same mistake I have. And especially, you, tsuwm!! Which do you use, your Lexicoughable Highness?
Best regards,
WordWright
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#56186
02/10/2002 12:59 PM
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whether any of you have made the same mistake I have
And that would be believing your language king?
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#56187
02/10/2002 2:19 PM
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Hmmmmm. Now that you bring it up ... when I was singing (for fun and profit) I would say :
"I have memorized the lyrics of that new song." However, when speaking about a song I might say "It has a beautiful lyric." -or- "The lyrics of that song are beautiful." -or even - "That new song has a beautiful lyric."
Make of it what you will!
Musick - where are you?
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#56188
02/10/2002 3:17 PM
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>Which do you use, your Lexicoughable Highness?
I cannot carry a tune, why should I bother trying to drag the words around?
-joe (caco) phony
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#56189
02/10/2002 3:36 PM
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My dictionary says (usually plural) the words of a song, as distinguished from the music.
Sound like your ped- ant put his ped in his mouth. Definition of being positive - being wrong at the top of your voice.
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#56190
02/10/2002 4:13 PM
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Dear wwh,
My latest edition of the American Heritage shows lyric as the words of a song, and in parentheses there's a statement about lyrics used as the same. There's no usage note, unfortunately, so it appears that the board thought it no big deal. Don't have the dictionary with me here, but I could look it up.
To wow: On the usage in the phrase, "It has a beautiful lyric.." (or something you wrote like that): That seems to be the type of use referred to in the AHD. I've never knowingly heard that usage, but my ears are open now to see whether I ever hear it.
This could simply be a case of language-in-progress, ever-changing, adaptive, misused, and, finally, transformed into something it wasn't before.
Best regards,
WordAwake
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#56191
02/10/2002 6:42 PM
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stranger
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Hereabouts, "lyrics" means "words" and "lyric" means "melodic." As Wordwind said, "...language-in-progress..."
Tsyganka
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#56192
02/11/2002 3:13 AM
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veteran
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The popular song, as a unique American art form has, like the German Lied, rules as formal as the sonnet. Its form consists of a front section (I forget what that's called), which is often unremarkable and little heard, followed by the "verse", which is the part which most people would recognize. Where, indeed, is Musick, who could enlighten us further?
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#56193
02/11/2002 3:32 AM
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#56194
02/11/2002 3:38 AM
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Who needs intro?
"C, A-min, F, G" ... all you need.
Drat! Muh kid loosened one'a muh gee-tar strings, an' he won't tell me which one.
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#56195
02/11/2002 4:38 AM
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WW, you're back! Utter delight!  I've always heard song lyrics. I can't imagine saying lyric unless it was a one-word song!
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#56196
02/11/2002 6:17 AM
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waxing lyrical because wordwind's back.
Bingley
Bingley
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#56197
02/11/2002 8:05 AM
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Dear Keiva,
C, a, F, G = "Heart and Soul" yourself to death, ad infinitum!!! and since I don't know Latin, I'll make an uneducated guess that ad infinitum means something like "into infinity" ! :)
Beatles Regards,
WordWooed
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#56198
02/11/2002 8:20 AM
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enthusiast
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Actually I always refer to the words of a song as its 'words'.
'Lyrics' would only refer to the words of the songs in musicals.
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#56199
02/11/2002 1:16 PM
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addict
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I went to an e-mail written by a musician friend of mine for my answer. He wrote to me,
"I wrote a song while I was in the hospital. I have the lyrics finished and some of the chords. We are going to try recording it tonight."
This is as close to an expert opinion as I can get on the subject. Unfortunately, he passed away about two months after recording the song.
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#56200
02/11/2002 4:13 PM
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My $0.02 would go towards buying the "s" at the end of lyrics. In casual usage I would almost always say "I can never understand the lyrics to that song," but I think deep down I know that the singular is the "correct" form.
Note that you (well, I, anyway) would never question that the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural.
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#56201
02/11/2002 4:18 PM
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the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural.
I rest my case.
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#56202
02/11/2002 5:00 PM
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addict
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the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural.
I rest my case.
YeahBut©, my point was -- melody (singular) for collection of notes, why not lyric (singular) for collection of words?
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#56203
02/11/2002 5:10 PM
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the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural
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#56204
02/12/2002 2:21 AM
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old hand
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'Lyrics' would only refer to the words of the songs in musicals.
I beg to differ... that there is what they call the libretto.
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#56205
02/12/2002 2:48 AM
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veteran
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I believe, FB, 'libretto' is more often used for the words of an opera. I think that in the case of a B'way musical, they generally call it the 'book'. Nice simple Anglo-Saxon term.
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#56206
02/12/2002 3:12 AM
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Bob, your idea makes sense to me. I have no doubt that "book" is proper, and would have thought that "libretto" is not -- but on googling, I do find "Broadway" and "libretto" used together quite often.
Scanning through the sites, my sense is that "libretto" is used to mean the detailed story-line of a musical, and "lyrics" to mean the specific words sung when the characters break into song. For example, "In 1948 Loesser was approached by fledgling Broadway producers Cy Feuer and Ernest Martin to write music and lyrics to George Abbott's libretto for an adaptation of the classic Brandon Thomas play Charley's Aunt." But I am very tentative on this. Comments?
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#56207
02/12/2002 4:06 AM
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As a singer/songwriter and musical-theatre performer I've always used and heard lyrics except when referring to a specific word, phrase, or line, in which case we might say, "I'm forgetting the lyric," "What's that lyric?", "Let's change that lyric," something akin to the way an actor might say "my lines" when referring to a large portion of a script, but "I dropped a line" or "I love that line" when referring to one spot or, well, one line. Of course, on the published sheet music it usually reads Music by: and Words by: (a distended period here?...I've never had to place a period after a colon before, how's that work? )
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#56208
02/12/2002 11:08 AM
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I've never had to place a period after a colon before, how's that work?
While holding the shift key down press the colon/semi-colon key, then release the shift key and press the period/greater-than key.
Or either that or you could interpolate a long parenthetical phrase and put the period after the close paren, one.
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#56209
02/12/2002 1:23 PM
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So, then, the key to this is that a period is greater than a colon?
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#56210
02/12/2002 2:09 PM
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a period is greater than a colon?
It's more efficient; it accomplishes more with less.
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#56211
02/12/2002 2:11 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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While holding the shift key down press the colon/semi-colon key, then release the shift key and press the period/greater-than key.How nice of you Faldage to share your knowledge of technique with others. You inspire me to repay you in kind. Put your index finger on that key with the brackets pointing to the right...now, mash. Next, type out S-M-I-L-,.. oh, you know how to do that? Silly me, I thought you had forgotten. Please ignore this post.
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#56212
02/12/2002 2:13 PM
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Put your index finger on that key with the brackets pointing to the right...now, mash.I don't use emoticons  !
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#56213
02/12/2002 2:19 PM
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Posts: 55
newbie
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newbie
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Keiva writes;
Scanning through the sites, my sense is that "libretto" is used to mean the detailed story-line of a musical, and "lyrics" to mean the specific words sung when the characters break into song. For example, "In 1948 Loesser was approached by fledgling Broadway producers Cy Feuer and Ernest Martin to write music and lyrics to George Abbott's libretto for an adaptation of the classic Brandon Thomas play Charley's Aunt." But I am very tentative on this. Comments?
If the lyric is the words of a song, as a melody is the collective notes of one, then a libretto would have lyrics and melodies because it's a collection of songs in the plural. A lyric from the libretto would be a single song from the collection.
Check the dictionaries. There's precedent there for using lyric as the words of a song, though we seem to agree here that most say lyrics for words of a single song.
Collapsing here,
OrB~
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#56214
02/12/2002 4:38 PM
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a libretto ... it's a collection of songs
My thought -- unsure of this -- is that the "libretto" includes the words spoken, as well as the words sung.
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#56215
02/12/2002 6:06 PM
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newbie
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newbie
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Libretto: All words sung
Quasi libretto (my term): All words sung and a few sung
Libretto; and script: All words sung; and all words spoken
But, really, librettos should include all the lyrics for the songs and recitatives in an opera, shouldn't they? I guess it's come to mean something different, but, strictly speaking, are librettos and their inclusive lyrics really from the world of opera?
Really wondering what they are,
OrB
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#56216
02/12/2002 9:16 PM
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...but, strictly speaking, are librettos and their inclusive lyrics really from the world of opera?Faldage would probably tell you it's Italian for "little book." But far be it from me to speak for him... we all know that can get us in trouble  
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#56217
02/13/2002 1:43 AM
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From the record jacket of My Fair Lady, Original Cast Recording:
" book and lyrics by : Alan Jay Lerner
music by : Frederic Loewe"
The Oklahoma cover says
"Music by RICHARD ROGERS Lyrics by OSCAR HAMMERSTEIN II"
West Side Story reports
"Music by LEONARD BERSNTEIN
Lyrics by STEPHEN SONDHEIM
Book by ARTHUR LAURENTS"
Libretto seems to be reserved for opera and operetta, and includes all the words spoken and sung. Broadway designates them - and credits them - individually. Mix and match. Seems to take different skills to do words and songs both.
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#56218
02/13/2002 4:32 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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lyrics by : Alan Jay Lerner
But Oklahoma, West side Story, et al are collections of songs, so it would be correct to say, "the lyrics of the songs are by ..." whereas it would be correct to say, "the lyric to 'Maria' is by Sondheim."
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#56219
02/13/2002 4:34 PM
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Please, people, can't we all just get along?
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#56220
02/13/2002 4:54 PM
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Once upon a time a local newspaper columnist ran a little puzzle contest a` la "26 L of the A means what?" type. He had the foresight to include in the instructions the disclaimer "The correct answers are the ones kept in the top right-hand drawer of my office desk."
There doesn't seem to be much consistency in the way people - even professionals - refer to these things. We could (just did) spend a lot of time pointing out all the examples of this, I suppose.
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#56221
02/13/2002 6:34 PM
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Please, people, can't we all just get along?
You want we should rejoice in our diversity, already?
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#56222
02/13/2002 10:18 PM
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the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes ... but we want to make the words of a song plural.
That's because the words ARE plural, Flatlander. We don't perceive a succession of notes as individual notes (unless, of course, we are the composer). But each word in a song has recognizable meaning. Hence we think of the words of a song in the plural and we refer to them as the "lyrics" of a song. This is quite logical and any convention which flies in the face of logic will sooner or later succumb to the weight of that logic, I submit.
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#56223
02/14/2002 10:17 AM
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I'd like to hear a lexicographer's take on this lyric/lyrics controversy. Have a bit of history here.
Now where could we find a lexicographer? Hmmmmm....I see a vision rising! And it has a great cape! And on its chest is emblazoned--yes, I can see it taking form--a great 't'!!!
It's a bird...no, it's a plane...it's tsuwmperman!!!
OK, tsuwmperman! Tell us the tales of those times when lyric has been used to mean the words of a song!
Best regards,
WordWaiting
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#56224
02/14/2002 2:11 PM
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A lyric was originally the words of a lyric poem suitable for setting to the music of a lyre, as per the roving troubadours of old. This is from Webster's Collegiate:
1 lyric \'lir-ik\ adj 1: suitable for singing to the lyre or for being set to music and sung 2 a: expressing direct usu. intense personal emotion<~poetry> b: EXUBERANT, RHAPSODIC 3 of an opera singer: having a light voice and a melodic style -- compare DRAMATIC
2 lyric n 1: a lyric composition; specif: a lyric poem 2 pl the words of a popular song or musical-comedy number
Note 2:2 stresses plural for the words of a song
lyricist n: a writer of lyrics
lyrist n : 1. \'ly(e)r-est\ a player on the lyre 2. \'lir-est\ : LYRICIST
(Oh, and lyre is from the ME lire, OF lyra, and is derived from Greek...so there's something for you, Dr. Bill)
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