#53675
01/24/2002 7:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
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this is cut from an announcement made to day:
....imposing a new security fee of $2.50 per enplanement for passengers on domestic or foreign air carriers originating at airports within the United States. The fees are to pay for the costs of providing Federal civil aviation security services.
Passengers will not be charged for more than two enplanements per one-way trip or four enplanements per round trip with a maximum fee of $10 on a round-trip ticket....
enplanements gets my vote for the years uglies word.. (it should at least be emplanements..just to make it easier to say..)
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#53676
01/24/2002 7:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
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Since "enplane" is in dictionary, "enplanement" seems OK. It is the necessity, embarrassment, and inconvenience of it that is ugly. The suggestion of making available identity cards that would entitle passengers to bypass that checkpoint quickly sounds very sensible.
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#53677
01/24/2002 11:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 69
journeyman
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journeyman
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ID cards are a bad idea. It is already bad - if you don't have some sort of photo ID, you're already a suspicious person. ID cards are just a way to ensure that someone without one automatically provides a police officer with "reasonable suspicion" and even "probable cause." It does not confer any protection (civil rights or otherwise) and ID cards are commonly faked (the good ones are expensive, but easily obtained). ID cards do not protect society, they simply reduce freedom and become a de facto internal passport. I don't care how many enplanement fees I have to pay - I prefer it to a national ID card. I will refuse to get one. I am a veteran, and I fought for liberty, not so a bunch of damn sheep can sell it for completely illusory security.
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
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#53678
01/25/2002 1:26 AM
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I carried a draft card with my photo and thumb print and Army Serial Number for many years as required, and had no problem. Massachusetts put my social security number and photo on my driver's license, and I never had a problem. The ID cards could be optional, for frequent fliers only. I think proper planning could eliminate problems. The police could hardly detain anyone just because they were not a frequent flier.
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#53679
01/25/2002 2:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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Bravo Bryan. I agree entirely.
No, Bill, it's not the same thing as a draft card or a drivers license. I have carried the one too, and didn't mind and still carry the driver's license. They are/were issued for specific purposes, although the driver's license has since become the closest thing we have to an all-purpose ID. But no one is compelled to produce it for ID purposes, although you might have difficulty getting a check cashed, or buying cigarettes (if you are borderline age) if you elect to refuse to use your license as an ID. Every modern tyranny, like Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, to name the two most obvious examples, has been quick to force its citizens to carry some sort of ID document by which the government enforcers can control them. Even some old tyrannies did the same (remember Jean Valjean and his yellow passport?).
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#53680
01/25/2002 7:21 AM
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I think you have to separate the mechanism from the process. There's nothing wrong with photo IDs per se, but in fact they rapidly become debased currency because they are so easy to fake. Therefore, you're quickly back to ths situation where everyone carries 'em and no one trusts 'em, especially in a security area. So for that reason, I believe that the introduction of ID cards is a waste of time (and our money).
The use of photo IDs to enforce the "law" or not is a matter of political will and its attitude to civil rights. I would not expect photo IDs to be used for control purposes in a democracy. I would expect them to be used for control purposes in a tyranny.
Like BYB and WWH, I've been carrying a photo ID licence, although not for as long as those two reprobates. I think I've had to produce it, what, twice, in the five years I've had it. But more importantly, if you travel externally you already have a photo ID. It's called your passport ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#53681
01/25/2002 4:10 PM
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I'll bet a lot of frequent fliers would very much like to have an ID card that would save many minutes waiting in line, being groped and denuded. I think they could be made extremely hard to fake. I think the fears of their being abused by the government are exaggerated. If the governments wanted that power, they could get it into legislation.I don't need one because I ain't going nowhere.
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#53682
01/25/2002 9:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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I think the fears of their being abused by the government are exaggerated. If the governments wanted that power, they could get it into legislation.I don't need one because I ain't going nowhere.
I dunno wwh, that nowhere that you ain't going, might be jail, if you don't have your papers in order.
Bye the bye, you do don't you?
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#53683
01/25/2002 9:22 PM
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Dear Milum: I understand perfectly well that a National, compulsory ID card could be abused.
But I do not see how a voluntary one could be abused.
And the police get serious problems if the detain people without probably cause. Since I had my wallet stolen a couple years ago, I have been strolling around LA where cops shoot people on small provocation;, without any identification whatsoever, and no anxiety.
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#53684
01/25/2002 10:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
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tell that to the young (early 30's) graduate student, who has been keep in custody for 3 months-- he was staying the hotel across the street from the WTC, and when his room was being cleared, they found a ground to air radio in the safe..
it must be that he was part of it? right? he is staying in a hotel at WTC, has an ground to air radio, he is an arab, named mohammed, and living in US on student visa..
well it turns out a pilot left it there-- the pilot didn't know where he had left it.. and had reported it stolen... only the pilot was the previous occupant of the same room, -- and there is no record of any communications from ground to either plane...and no prints but the pilots on the radio.
you might feel safe walking in LA, dear Dr. Bill.. but should some mugger dress himself up as an elderly white man, in order to be able to sneek into elevators, where he rips off his mask and assalts people.. see how easy it is to walk arround.. profiling... whether racial or ethnic or sexual is real..
you fit the profile of a victim, not of an agressor.. but if the profile is vague.. male, mid thirties, arabian.. or young, tall, thin and black.. it no fun, and you don't get treated okay..
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#53685
01/25/2002 10:46 PM
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Posts: 3,409
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#53686
01/25/2002 11:11 PM
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Dear MaxQ: Do tell us what Ben Franklin would say about a voluntary ID card. Maybe he would say that it was dangerous for all the signers of the Declaration of Independence to have done so. He might tell me that it is dangerous for me to use my initials on the board, and in my bio have my full name, and have my e-mail address wwhunt@pacbell.net. If anybody is interested, my address is 15743 Covello St. Van Nuys, CA 91406
To recapitulate, I see no danger in a VOLUNTARY ID card. And nobody yet has given any sensible reason why I should fear to have one. If this be treason, make the most of it.
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#53687
01/25/2002 11:21 PM
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Dear MaxQ: If this is the Franklin quote you were referring to, you should read it again, carefully.
I believe you have completely misunderstood it. He was not advocating caution, quite the opposite.
They that can give up essential
liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety.
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#53688
01/25/2002 11:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 69
journeyman
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journeyman
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I must draw a distinction between a national ID card and a frequent flyer card.
The national one is only useful to tyranny - democratic/republic governments do not need it. A national ID is a prelude to authoritarianism, the same way personal weapon prohibition is.
A frequent flyer card is *much* more easily faked, since law enforcement would not administer them. Seriously, the IL commercial driver's license scandal should be a clue that we don't want protection from terrorism to ride on such a silly thing as an ID even administered by the state (or the State). Forget one administered by airlines or some such foolishness.
It may not seem like I've come up with "a sensible reason" but I think I have. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I suppose my tolerance for inconvenience is a bit higher, too.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
Cheers,
Bryan
You are only wretched and unworthy if you choose to be.
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#53689
01/26/2002 1:10 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
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I'm a little confused about this hubbub. I don't see what is particularly nefarious about having a picture I.D. Our driver’s licenses have our pictures on them. If you want to cash a cheque, a picture I.D. is a good indication to the merchant that you are indeed the owner of those cheques.
You are already registered with a social security number, are you not? How does adding a picture make it bad all of a sudden?
More importantly, don’t you believe that the intentions of your government are good? I believe my government has the best of intentions for us. Sometimes I don’t always agree with what they do but I do believe they have the people’s best interest at heart.
If you believe your government has some machiavellian intentions then you have more important things to worry about…like ousting that government pronto.
I don’t mind being identified as exactly who I am.
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#53690
01/26/2002 3:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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bel, though we live in different countries, I agree entirely with you. I can't believe that anyone in the government is there purely for personal gain. Though national politicians seem to put a lot of spin on what they say, they all see public office as an opportunity to change some aspect of society for the better, whatever their intended method for doing that is. Plus, needing a majority vote to be elected, there are much easier ways to achieve personal gain.
And about national ID cards, I've often thought that some type of general, customizable card that could function as drivers license, SS card, debit card, library card or whatever would be very convenient. Surely it could be made so that certain companies' computers could only access specific info on the card, thus allowing for multiple functions. And maybe you could put some optional info on it if you think it would be convenient. Obviously, there could be problems with this, but I don't see it as altogether evil, and I'm certainly not an authoritarian.
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#53691
01/26/2002 9:53 AM
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Posts: 3,409
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#53692
01/26/2002 4:55 PM
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Posts: 3,439
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For all who have participated here I suggest a good book : "Six Days" by Brendan DuBois available in US and UK publisher Little Brown. In hard cover - ISBN 0-316-85481-6 or in C format ISBN0-316-85477-8
Also a cautionary tale about homeland security!!!
I register as opposed to a national ID card.
Fer heaven's sake there are books out in general circulation about how to establish a different identity, fake IDs and even passports ... just for starters.
Even a voluntary card could be easily faked ... there's always someone who can find a way around any law or regulation if they're up to no good!
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#53693
01/26/2002 5:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
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I have always felt that it is my duty to be stingy with my freedom. A little trimmed off here, some bartered over there, and the next thing you know, you have next to no freedom and very little liberty to pursue personal happiness. I don't know what will deter bad guys, they are so very determined to be bad. This does not give the government or anyone else the right to restrict my freedom.
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#53694
01/26/2002 7:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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I can't believe that anyone in the government is there purely for personal gain.
I'm-m-m... also try-y-ying... r-r-resisting...tempt-t-t-ation...
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#53695
01/26/2002 8:21 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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Ok, Max, I get what you're alluding to. The electoral system is slightly flawed, but it usually works without any problems. There were specific reasons for it's inception and apparently no one has introduced a better system that everyone will agree on, so it's there. Plus, that only pertains to the presidential election, nothing with Congress, which is more important anyway. But musick, I'd love to know what you're talking about. I still hold that public office is by far not the most efficient method of personal gain. Even if you do get elected, there are so many levels of legislation and so much media coverage that it would be near impossible to do something sneaky. Maybe I'm just naive, but y'all sound like weirdo conspiracy theorists. 
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#53696
01/26/2002 9:07 PM
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Maybe I'm just naive, but y'all sound like weirdo conspiracy theorists.Maybe neither, Jazzo - but think of it as capitalism proved in action: 1 All government is *our power vested in others (ever read any Rousseau yet? - you might find him interesting, especially from a 'foundation of America' perspective) 2 All government depends for its existence on the wealth created by its citizens - in other words, they also spend *our money 3 The amount of power this structure gains thus tends to rise in inverse proportion to the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens 4 This is why historically no government has ever willingly ceded power back to its citizens - the motivation of the system runs entirely the other way 5 Thus it is vital that all who believe in individual liberty and personal freedom have to fight a continuous battle simply to maintain the advances forged over many hundreds of generations A simple illustration: we tend to think of our modern times as the acme of freedom and liberty... well, in many ways yes, but before the French revolution I could have travelled throughout Europe without a passport, and would have paid no income tax. Like many such increases of control by the mechanisms of the modern nation state at the cost of its individual citizens, these features were brought in as expediencies at the time of conflict (the Napoleonic Wars). Guess what? ~ these 'temporary measures' never got repealed! So, yes, Jazzo, keep a sensible head on your shoulders about loony conspiracist rednecks by all means, but don't underestimate the price we must pay in each and every generation to sustain the ideal of personal liberty: the price is vigilance. A suspicious scrutiny of anything proposed by any government, especially under pretext of 'special measures in times of war', is merely the by-product.... 
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#53697
01/26/2002 9:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
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...before the French revolution I could have travelled throughout Europe without a passport, and would have paid no income tax...these features were brought in as expediencies at the time of conflict (the Napoleonic Wars). Guess what? ~ these 'temporary measures' never got repealed!
If I recall correctly, the US income tax was also a temporary measure, passed to finance World War I. I need not point out there, I did, anyway that it too has yet to be repealed.
Don't know what Ben Franklin's take on that would be (except I suspect he would agree with Santayanna)
("...are doomed to repeat them")
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#53698
01/26/2002 10:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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...the US income tax was also a temporary measure, passed to finance World War I...
But since then we've never actually® been out of war long enough for "the people" to do anything about it!
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#53699
01/26/2002 10:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
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But no matter how we moan about the income tax, without it the US could never have achieved the status we now have. I think I get more benefits from my taxes than any other country could provide.
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#53700
01/26/2002 11:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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wwh - I agree completely with the conclusion and your word choice as far as *quantity goes, but I'm not sure the 'type' of status and benefits we enjoy are currently moving in the *correct direction. IMHO, of course.
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#53701
01/27/2002 12:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
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I am compelled to remark on the beautiful lack of animosity in this thread. I shy away from politics, but I'm happy to see it *is possible to discuss such without imagined offenses taken. Even though it is a non-word thread 
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#53702
01/27/2002 12:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
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As I said in another post, I worry about the future of a culture that mocks virtues, and enriches pornographers. We still have freedom to influence legislation, but too many (including me) are lax about being active in the political process.
I got a very interesting e-mail about the over-permissive parents of John Walker. I did not know before that it says right on passports that enlisting in a foreign army voids citizenship. I hope they shove that clause right up his cloaca.
P.S. Dear AnnaStrophic: I am so anxious to keep the Board running in a friendly way, I am trying very hard not to hurt anybody's feelings. If I err unwittingly, sock it to me. That's an order.Please.
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#53703
01/27/2002 1:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
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4 This is why historically no government has ever willingly ceded power back to its citizens - the motivation of the system runs entirely the other wayThe only 'sneaky' thing I may have implied (unintentionally) is that this is not clear to most people (whether misinformed or unaware) and not part of what in most mediums sell. ... and tax rebates don't *define "power", at least not to me. My apologies to all for perpetuating a political discussion, but as I've just seen AnnaS remarks, I hope my feeble attempts at bringing the definition of a term to focus will help us maintain this *course
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#53704
01/27/2002 4:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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Jazzo, you are, I believe, correct in the main in your belief that it's either difficult or impossible to get really rich out of politics. But I just finished reading in the latest Smithsonian magazine, which I received today, an article about William Marcy Tweed, the infamous Boss who ran New York, through Tammany Hall, for years. He made enormous amounts of money for himself and his cronies, all by means which depended on political position and power, but not necessarily high positions (which he never held). I believe we are going to find out more about modern money making through political contact with the Enron scandal. We may find that there are more people making big bucks through politics than we thought possible. The Tweed article shows how large sums can be gathered from almost insignificant offices or positions. I beleive there was a minor scandal some time ago having to do with the Bureau of Indian Affairs and that there are huge sums involved in a lawsuit now going on.
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#53705
01/27/2002 6:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Like them fellers said.
One of the main avenues for legitimate accrual of wealth from holding or having held high political office in today's world seems to be the appearance/guest speaking/lecture circuit, mostly in the US. If you have been a politician of some note during what the Chinese like to term "interesting times" (an old Chinese curse says "May you live during intereting times"), you seem to be able to cut fancy book deals, too.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#53706
01/27/2002 3:35 PM
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Posts: 3,439
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Yes, Cap K there is quite a few dollars to be made in the lecture circuit and through book deals ... IF people want to hear or read what you have to say. Iffy business that!
As to taxes : before WWII it cost a child 10 cents to go to a (double feature) movie with cartoons and a newsreel to boot. In 1942 a penny tax was added to "help the war effort." It was increased a couple of times and is still being collected.
Reminds me of the time I was crossing a toll bridge on the only road to our summer vacation spot ... I asked the toll taker "Haven't we paid for this bridge yet?" And he responded. "You sure have, but now we need to paint it."
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#53707
01/28/2002 4:21 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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WOW, I have to relate the latest brilliant idea of the government of Maryland.
There have been tolls on I-95 ever since it was built. The toll has been $1.00 per automobile (more for trucks) for quite a few years. Last year, in an economy move, it was decided to raise the toll to $2.00, but collect it on only one side of the highway. So the tollbooths were removed from the southbound side and you pay the toll on the northbound side. This means it's free to enter the state (from Delaware) but it costs you to leave. I think there is a deep meaning here, but not sure what it is.
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#53708
01/28/2002 7:14 PM
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Posts: 4,757
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deep meaningIt's the same here in Wales Bob - costs about $10 to cross the wonderful suspension bridge over the tidal race River Severn to get into this green and pleasant land, but escaping into the squalid grime of England is free... market economics, really!
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#53709
01/28/2002 8:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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Same deal with the Golden Gate bridge... you don't pay for the privilege of Sausalito & Marin County, but if you want back into the city, fork it over!
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#53710
01/28/2002 8:25 PM
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New Jersey. You can get in for free but it costs to get out.
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#53711
01/28/2002 9:08 PM
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Well thats a no brainer-- every one is willing to pay what ever it costs to get out of New Jersey!
(just the usually ny/nj rivally--WO'N, as i am sure you know..)
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#53712
01/28/2002 10:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Hey, I can honestly say I know the feeling ... clock this: http://www.bacchus-marsh.com/Files/Part 24.htmAbout halfway down ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#53713
01/29/2002 1:23 AM
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Posts: 11,074 Likes: 2
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I think it's not the parochial NY/NJ competition but even more so: getting into Manhattan (AM) - from Jersey, Yonkers, the Island, whatever - vs leaving (PM). If I recall the tollbooths correctly (pay to get in, sail right through going home), it means relief during the evening rush hour -- one less delay on the trip home, when everyone is more tired, and more hu/arried, and more impatient...At least that's the rationalization for the direction of the unilateral toll gates I've always accepted. Maybe I'm naive.
Alternatives?
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#53714
01/29/2002 4:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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It's also the same procedure between the Philadelphia area and New Jersey now...$3 to cross from NJ to PA over the Ben Franklin, Commodore Barry, and Walt Whitman (yeah!) bridges, no charge coming back. Traffic management it was called...not to mention the salaries saved by trimming half the tolltakers, and slowly raising the fee, like an insidious salestax. It started out as $1, then $2, now suddenly it's $3...be $5 before ya know it! Gotta keep painting those bridges! Just like the NJ sales tax they introduced somewhere around '70'-'72..."TEMPORARY 2% for budgetary relief GUARANTEED to be repealed in 2 years time"...now 6%, thank you.  And Helen, how much will it cost me? Get me oudda here, PLEASE!!!! "GET OFF THE TURNPIKE!"®
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