#52191
01/08/2002 4:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1 |
The term 'Dipsy doodle' did not originate in sports. It was, I believe, the name of a dance and/or the title of a popular song of the 1930's.
|
|
|
#52192
01/08/2002 7:44 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Welcome aBoard, willhoff. I'm wondering if it's possible the Great Anu made a mistake? Another member here posted in 'Miscellany' that it's a 1937 Tommy Dorsey tune.
|
|
|
#52193
01/08/2002 9:51 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
W3 has the baseball sense as no. 3, but "origin unknown"
1. a bewildering plunge and lag by turns [in economics]
2. artfully deceptive or shady manipulation [in politics]
3. a very slow curve on a pitched ball in baseball
|
|
|
#52194
01/09/2002 2:15 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear willhoff: I owe you a humble apology for having made a post in Miscellany about your topic, having failed to check this location first. I have sent you a PM with more detail. Bill Hunt
|
|
|
#52196
01/09/2002 12:06 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The suggestion was made by Keiva in the Misc. thread that this sounds like a Dizzy Dean expression. I can also easily imagine it coming from Satchel Paige. He also opines that the expression could have gone either way, from the song/dance to sports or vice versa. Since the possibilities are so close chronologically further research is needed to pin it down one way or the other. I respectfully submit that hearsay evidence is unreliable, even if from people alive at the time. Someone may have noticed it first in a secondary context and have assumed it to be the primary source.
|
|
|
#52197
01/09/2002 3:06 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
> I respectfully submit that hearsay evidence is unreliable...
as another example, I would have bet dollars to doits that hat trick originated in ice hockey, from the tradition of spectators throwing their headgear on the ice upon the incidence of a player scoring his third goal of a game. then there is the octopus trick used in Detroit...
|
|
|
#52198
01/09/2002 3:27 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
tsuwm would have bet dollars to doits that hat trick originated in ice hockey
This is just a specific example of a general phenomenon. We go through our lives blithely not noticing something or other and then it springs up all around us. I don't think that I got everybody started driving red cars just because I started noticing all the red cars on the road after I got mine.
|
|
|
#52199
01/09/2002 4:36 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
tsuwm has to be kidding. Ice hockey began comparatively recently.Cricket is so much older that its being the source of the phrase "hat trick" seems far more probable.
|
|
|
#52200
01/09/2002 4:42 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
I looked it up in Quinion:
It comes from the English game of cricket and refers to a bowler who
takes three wickets with three successive balls. For those more familiar
with baseball, this is an impressive achievement, similar to a baseball
pitcher striking out three batters in a row, but much less common. It seems
to have been the custom in the nineteenth century for such a paragon of the
art to be awarded a new hat by his club as a mark of his success.
However, it is sometimes also said that the phrase alludes to a distinctly
more plebeian reward in which the bowler was permitted to take his hat
around the crowd for a collection (not necessarily a bowler hat, of course:
that was named after a couple of completely different chaps, Messrs
Thomas and William Bowler, hatmakers). Hat trick was first recorded in
print in the 1870s, but has since been widened to apply to any sport in
which the person competing carries off some feat three times in quick
succession, such as scoring three goals in one game of soccer.
|
|
|
#52201
01/09/2002 4:42 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
my point, assuming that I had one atall, was that I was surprised to learn otherwise.
you may cease looking for further corroboration.
|
|
|
#52202
01/09/2002 4:45 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605 |
Ice hockey is "comparatively recent", dr. bill? (belM, where are you?) Surely it is old enough to have generalete word-coinages.
[to be editied upon checking some resources at home]
|
|
|
#52203
01/09/2002 5:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Keiva: The shoe skates necessary to play professional hockey were not available when I was ten years old. How vividly I remember my first pair of shoe skates, and how glady I said goodby to the old clamp on ones.
|
|
|
#52204
01/09/2002 5:24 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Keiva: I found a site indicating ice hockey is a hundred years older than I thought. But no reference to hat trick. http://www.gameofhockey.com/hockey-evidence.html
|
|
|
#52205
01/09/2002 5:34 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
The shoe skates necessary to play professional hockey were not available when I was ten years old.
The shoe skates necessary to play professional hockey with the intensity of today's game were not available when you were ten years old, Dr. Bill. The NHL dates back to 1917.
Not to mention that it is entirely possible that the expression could have been inherited from field hockey.
Note: I am NOT disputing the cricket origin of the term 'hat trick'. I am merely saying that there is no reason that the term could NOT have come from elsewhere.
|
|
|
#52206
01/09/2002 8:19 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Well, folks, I never heard of it as a Tommy Dorsey tune. I vaguely remember Bill Haley having recorded it, and I could probably dig out his cover if I could be bothered going downstairs and digging through the collection of moldy vinyl platters sandwiched between fading and disintegrating slices of cardboard that my record collection has become. I never knew it was a dance.
BUT, and this is a very small and totally insignificant "but", I had seen it used in economics. Once. Precisely.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
|
|
