#52075
01/07/2002 5:58 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
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A non-English-speaking friend encountered the expression "fruit of the loom" in a (serious, non-fiction) text he's translating. Context: "...after the war, it would be like sharing the fruit of the loom with the enemy..." It's one of those expressions you think you're sure about, but, on second thought, maybe not exactly sure. I can't find it in any of my reference sources, and only the logo on the underwear package comes to mind. Can anyone help?
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#52076
01/07/2002 5:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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There is a Biblical phrase "The fruit of Thy womb, Jesus " addressed to the Blessed Virgin. As a take-off on this there used to be a brand of underwear labelled "Fruit of the Loom." I can't imagine basis for using it as historical or economic term.
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#52077
01/07/2002 5:58 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#52078
01/07/2002 7:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
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Fruit of the Loom now markets most of their product with the label "FTL". Most likely because it sounds more masculine.
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#52079
01/07/2002 7:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
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Fruit of the Loom now markets most of their product with the label "FTL". Most likely because it sounds more masculine.
You are right, Jazzo, they were probably trying to get away from "fruit," but I'm not sure that substituting the abbreviation for "faster than light" was the way to go.
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#52080
01/07/2002 8:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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FTL for Fits Treasures Lovingly.
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#52081
01/07/2002 10:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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There is a Biblical phrase "The fruit of Thy womb, Jesus addressed to the Blessed Virgin.
The Hail Mary: Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
In the bible itself the phrase "fruit of the womb" appears repeatedly, the earliest being Genesis 30:2: And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?
However, the phrase apparently never appears -- King James Version -- as "fruit of thy womb, Jesus", even in those cases where it is referring to Jesus.
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#52082
01/08/2002 3:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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There seems to be considerable confusion over what content of the "Ave Maria" prayer is from the Bible. Just to set everyone straight, the first part of the prayer goes,
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Jesu. ...
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. ...
St. Luke, chapt. 1, describing the visit of the angel Gabriel to Mary, vs. 28-31: et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit, Ave gratia plena! Dominus tecum. Benedicta tu in mulieribus. Quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio. Et ait angelus ei, Ne timeas, Maria; invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum. Ecce concipies in utero et paries filium et vocabis nomen eius Iesum....
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS...
From this, we see that only the first phrase of the prayer is taken directly from the words of the evangelist, although there are indirect references.
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#52083
01/08/2002 3:53 AM
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,636
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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[sigh]A stranger has come to us and posted in the proper place a valid question. Shouldn't we answer the actual question instead of pretending to be AEnigma?  My dear tivtrans, welcome to the board. My guess would be cloth related. I would think that the meaning would be closely related to "giving the shirt off one's back". The fruit of a loom would be a piece of cloth Helen? Fiberbabe?. "...it would be like sharing ( your shirt, your blanket, etc.)with the enemy..." Anyway, that's my best guess. Okay. Maybe a loin cloth.
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#52084
01/08/2002 8:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6 |
Thanks for the company history info (was on the way to the site when I saw your post), but still can't get the meaning to fit...
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#52085
01/08/2002 8:15 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
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Very reasonable guess -- thanks for getting to the point...
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#52086
01/08/2002 12:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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It sounds like an absurdity to me. Sharing one's underwear seems a bit excessive, or hyperbolic.
As for the Latin term, "ventris," wouldn't that literally be "of the belly," not "of the womb?" The Latin term for womb is, as far as I know, the same as our synonym for it, "uterus."
As for FTL, I see that as "Futile." After all, Fruit of The Loom went broke last year, and changed the name upon restructuring, if I recall rightly.
And welcome to the asylum, TIVTRANS!
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#52087
01/08/2002 1:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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As for the Latin term, "ventris," wouldn't that literally be "of the belly," not "of the womb?"
Geoff, for what it's worth, ventre means both "womb" and "belly" in Portuguese.
Anyway, here's something I don't think has been addressed yet: we have both expressions, "fruit of the womb" and "fruit of the loom." How/when did one beget the other, if that is indeed the case? Was this a stroke of marketing genius on the part of the underwear boys or did it happen before?
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#52088
01/08/2002 2:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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as explained at one of those sites I gave above, it was the stroke of genius of a woman labeling her families products. I doubt she had womb in mind but more likely the output of their looms, although who's to say whether there might have been something subliminal going on.
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#52089
01/08/2002 2:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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who's to say whether there might have been something subliminal going on.
Indeed, you never know...
I'll look at the links now.
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#52090
01/08/2002 2:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Looking up "venter" I got a surprise in the second meaning:
2 Law the womb: used in designating maternal parentage, as in children of the first venter, meaning “children of the first wife”
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#52091
01/08/2002 2:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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?children of the first wife?
Talk about being reduced to a sexual object!!
[white]Wherefrom did ye get them disparate quotes, Dr. Bill?
And why did they turn into ?s? All I done din was copy and paste.[/white]
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#52092
01/08/2002 2:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Shouldn't we answer the actual question instead of pretending to be AEnigma?
Come, come now, consuelo. Wouldn't want to give tivtrans the wrong idea about us.
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#52093
01/08/2002 3:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear consuelo: I double dare you to make appropriate interpretation of the original question.
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#52094
01/08/2002 7:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
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No need to go double-daring. "Shirt off my back" or something similar is so far the most reasonable interpretation I've heard. The underwear logo originally connected nice pictures of fruit with the word "fruit" in the already-chosen name.
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#52095
01/08/2002 8:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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Geoff, for what it's worth, ventre means both "womb" and "belly" in Portuguese.Well, gollygeewhizz, AS, I just looked it up in my French dictionary and found that it can mean womb in French also, although it seems that its meaning womb is a generalization rather than the specific original meaning. All this proves is that I didn't learn much in Latin class forty years ago! 
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#52096
01/08/2002 8:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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> "...after the war, it would be like sharing the fruit of the loom with the enemy..."
now that I've reread all of this and actually® hi mav! thought about it, it seems to me that this could also be rendered as:
sharing the fruit of their labors with the enemy
or, more aptly:
sharing the spoils of war with the enemy
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#52097
01/08/2002 9:19 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I wonder where the family name of Craig Venter (of DNA fame) came from.
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#52098
01/09/2002 2:49 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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I wonder where the family name of Craig Venter (of DNA fame) came from.Since the root of his name has to do with wind, or wind making, his family was probably in the bean growing business. 
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#52099
01/09/2002 3:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
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addict
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Since the root of his name has to do with wind, or wind making....
Is this posted in the wrong thread? I think I saw this over there ~~~~~~~~~~~~>
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#52100
01/09/2002 11:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
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Dear tivtrans,
One thing I would like to know: this text, which your friend wants translated, is it written by a native-English speaking author? Speaking from my own experience, I could well imagine that an author who is proud of his acquired skill in idiomatic English actually "creates" a new application of a suggestive expression picked up in a different context. So it would seem vain to look for a historical origin. I am pretty sure the author meant "wealth accumulated by hard work".
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#52101
01/09/2002 2:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Good point, wsieber. I've seen this happen all too often, myself.
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#52102
01/10/2002 7:29 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
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Point well taken. Will pass on your message to my translator friend. After seeing the remarks made by all the language enthusiasts on this list, and checking many sources, I do agree that the writer has done some "coining" of his own. THANKS to you, WSIEBER, and to all that have offered their insight.
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#52103
01/10/2002 9:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 279
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 279 |
Howye
I suppose ye've all heard about the woman with the glass navel. She had a womb with a view.
Welcome ta ya Tivtrans. Gallantted, yer trouble shooten, problem solven teddy bear here. I can't find anythin about "fruit of the loom" in me tedasaurus either, but in the context ya've outlined it seems as if it's referen ta sharen the spoils of yer hard earned labour with the enemy. The nearest I can come up with at the moment is somethin akin ta the Little Red Hen syndrom. I'll get back ta ya if I think of anythin else. (It's a bit early in the mornen fer me and I haven't even said me mornen prayers yet. Although, on seconds thoughts, after readen the rest of this post it looks as if I'm covered fer the rest of the week)
Be seein ya
GallantTed
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#52104
01/10/2002 12:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
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addict
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Tivtrans,
Welcome to the board! Nice to see you found your voice after having been a member here longer than anyone else currently active. I do hope you will be posting again soon. Although I hadn't much to offer here, I found the question and ensuing answers quite lively!
Angel
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#52105
01/10/2002 12:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Angel, Check your stats. I registered the day this board opened, as did Jackie and several others currently active.  snow gotten to ya?In any case, welcome, tivtrans. Good to have another translator aBoard.
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#52106
01/10/2002 1:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6
stranger
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stranger
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To Angel and AnnaStrophic,
This has been fun. Am busy so don't get too much time to "chat" but the feedback has been great. Thanks for the welcome...
Tivtrans
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#52107
01/10/2002 5:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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ASp, it looks to me like you win the trophy as the earliest-poster among our current regulars. You and Jackie each posted on March 15, 2000, but yours is post #26 (13:36:57) and Jackie's #123, about 8 hours later. (tivtrans registered the next day.) That wasn't the first day -- registrations and posts go back as far as March 12 -- but none of the earlier folk seem to be with us now.
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#52108
01/10/2002 5:41 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thanks for setting the record straight, Keiva. Now I wish I'd gone to law school!
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#52109
01/10/2002 11:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
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addict
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Keiva,
Thank you for the history lesson! I do appologize to both ASp and Jackie...didn't mean to slight you gals!
Angel
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#52110
01/10/2002 11:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 688
addict
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addict
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snow gotten to ya?YUP!!!!!!!!!
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