#51791
01/15/2002 7:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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Posts: 3,409 |
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#51792
01/15/2002 9:33 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
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Many times I've written a line I really liked, only to realize (sometimes years later) that grammatically (or, as grammatically taught) it was incorrect even though it sounded right. So I'd go back and change it, but then I'd always wind up going back to the best sounding again. And that's pretty much what I go with today, what sounds the best. This always drove me crazy, though.  The Harbrace College Handbook, now published in its 13th editon by Hodges, has an entire chapter addressing this issue entitled, Agreement. Here's the url, although you have to register to get in (I have a print copy): http://www.hbcollege.com/english/comp/college/
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#51793
01/16/2002 7:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
The way I see it, much of the confusion here stems from the ultimately fruitless effort to separate form from content. Nobody in their  right mind would affirm that all women like football: this restricts the choice of possible meanings, unlike in the case of the Bali example (where a comma would make everything much clearer). I think grammar is good as a guide, but bad as a judge over habit and common sense.
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#51794
01/16/2002 12:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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I think grammar is good as a guide, but bad as a judge over habit and common sense.
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#51795
01/16/2002 5:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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#51796
01/24/2002 7:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
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From the Prentice Hall Reference Guide to Grammar and Usage, first ed. (I think there's a new 4th ed. out now), 1991, p. 87: In the phrase one of those who (or which or that) it is necessary to decide whether the who, which or that refers to only one or to the whole group. Only then can you decide whether the verb is singular or plural. "Rena is one of those shoppers who only buy things on sale." In this case, Rena is part of a large group, shoppers who only buy things on sale, and acts like them. Therefore, who takes a plural verb because it refers to shoppers. "The American Dictionary is the only one of the dictionaries on that shelf that includes Latin words." In this case the American Dictionary is not part of the group. Therefore, that refers back to one and takes a singular verb. Zat authority enough for y'all, Jackie, CapK and Keiva?
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#51797
01/25/2002 12:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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Zat authority enough for y'all, Jackie, CapK and Keiva?
Not for me, based on what you posted, ie., "In this case, Rena is part of a large group, shoppers who only buy things on sale, and acts like them. Therefore, who takes a plural verb because it refers to shoppers."
I certainly agree that In the phrase one of those who (orwhich or that) it is necessary to decide whether the who, which or that refers to only one or to the whole group. Only then can you decide whether the verb is singular or plural..
In the example given, I can't agree that the verb should be plural--on what basis did the writer decide this? Give me context! If the preceding conversation had been about, say, local retail economy (perhaps the speaker was referring to a survey that had been taken), yes. But if it happened to be someone who had been discussing Rena, then this could have been just a comment about one aspect of her life, and the verb should be singular. IMHO.
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#51798
01/25/2002 2:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Zat authority enough for y'all
The onliest authority I listens to are the one which I spent all those years from zero to five labouriously building inside my very own head without no he'p from nobody else cept only giving me zamples to work from.
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#51799
01/27/2002 7:18 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
"Someone told me something and I forgot what they said."
Your example may be grammatically incorrect, Jackie, but it is politically correct and, nowadays, politically correct trumps every other form of correctness. In your example, choosing the singular would force you into the chauvinistic "he" or the inelegant "he/she". Hence, "they" becomes the lesser of all incorrect evils. What would you say to that ASp?
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#51800
01/27/2002 3:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Not sure I understand the rules behind the theme of this thread, but would the following fit?
I refer to people saying "It's people like Smith that make the Dung Beetles a great team".
There is only one Mr Smith in the team - so how can it be people like him??
notbackyet stales
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#51801
01/27/2002 11:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618 |
Main Entry: (3)like
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, alteration of ilich, from Old English gelIc like, alike, from ge-, associative prefix + lIc body; akin to Old High German gilIh like, alike, Lithuanian lygus like -- more at CO-
Date: 13th century
1 a : the same or nearly the same (as in appearance, character, or quantity) <suits of like design> -- formerly used with as, unto, of <it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren -- Heb 2:17(Authorized Version)
b : chiefly British : closely resembling the subject or original <the portrait is very like>
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary.htm
There is only one Mr stales on the board - and there are no people like him!!
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#51802
01/30/2002 2:03 AM
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 28
newbie
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newbie
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 28 |
A tardy comment I know, but interesting to note that the AHD of English Usage quoted on a related area to the topic clearly can't make up its own mind re subject/verb usage: ' ... while 59 percent of the Usage panel insists ... 22 percent actually prefer...'. What help is there for we?
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#51803
01/30/2002 2:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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What help is there for we?
Good one, Lucy! Delighted to see you back! [GRIN]
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#51804
01/31/2002 10:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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What help is there for we?
And well ye might ask.
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#51805
01/31/2002 8:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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And well ye might ask.
Sure it shouldn't be "And well might ye ask."? [diving-for-the-bunker -e]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#51806
01/31/2002 8:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
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Sure it shouldn't be "And well might ye ask."?Sure it shouldn't be "And well might-ye ask."? [diving-for-the-next-bunker -e] 
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#51807
01/31/2002 8:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Sure it shouldn't be "And well might ye ask."?Actually© it should be "Well might thou ask" 
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#51808
01/31/2002 9:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Actually© it should be "Well might thou ask"
Ummm. How do I put this? Oh well, okay. NOT IF THERE'S MORE THAN ONE OF YE!
Hah. Sorted that one. Even dragged the thread back on track. Great stuff. On to the next totally impossible task for the day ... [sniff]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#51809
01/31/2002 10:41 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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NOT IF THERE'S MORE THAN ONE OF YE!Harrumph®! A) I was talking to Lucy, who, last I checked, was singular. 2) MORE THAN ONE OF YOU!
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#51810
01/31/2002 11:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
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Harrumph®!
Well, look, if you're going to gang up on me, I'm going to pick up my ball and go home!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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