#50727
12/25/2001 9:49 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Why do we ask, "Cat got your tongue?" I haven't seen a cat get anybody's tongue. Sure, we all know about cats who try to drink milk out of babies' mouths--never saw one horrors!, but have heard about it in old wives' tales.
But cats getting people's tongues? That just doesn't make any sense to me.
Don't let the cat get your tongue on this one. I would really appreciate some edification here.
DubDub
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#50728
12/25/2001 10:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#50729
12/25/2001 10:44 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Max: I enjoyed the cat site. But I doubt very much if some oriental brutality had anything to do with my mildly punitive aunt mocking my hesitancy to admit wrong doing.
And while we're at it, I have never except in jest heard "aunt" pronounced like the appellation of a member of the family Formicidae.
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#50730
12/25/2001 11:17 PM
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Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#50731
12/25/2001 11:54 PM
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Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Max:
About the suggestion on the link you provided: So, the miscreants lost their hands or tongues, and these were fed to the mideastern king's cats as "their daily food."
Heckuva lot of miscreants in those days to provide all that food on a daily basis for the king's kittens, huh?
Dub
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#50732
12/25/2001 11:58 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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re: ant vs aunt
It's a regionalism, I suspect. I'm from New York and there isn't any detectable difference there between the insect and the sister of my father (not aurally, anyway) - both are pronounced like the a in "hand." On the other hand my wife is from Boston and the distinction is quite clear when she speaks (I won't even try to illustrate!). Your California aunt is probably somewhere in between, at least linguistically speaking.
On an analogous note, I'm told that in New York City during the Depression, when a municipal job was prized as one of few available source of income and teachers' positions therefore at a premium, how you pronounced "oral" and "aural" could qualify or disqualify you from consideration...
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#50733
12/26/2001 12:52 AM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear wofahulicodoc: I was born and raised in Massachusetts. Man spricht wie der Schnabel gewachsen ist.
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#50734
12/26/2001 11:16 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wof writes: I'm from New York and there isn't any detectable difference there between the insect and the sister of my father ...
And where does this sister of your father reside? In a little thin rectangular box filled with earth? Hmmmmm?
DubDub
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#50735
12/26/2001 12:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
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Come, come, sir, I did say "aurally," didn't I? As it happens, she too started in NYC (as did her sisters, all of whom qualify as my aunt), but anyway we're supposed to be talking about her title, not her pronunciation :-)
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#50736
12/26/2001 12:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 872 |
 And where does this sister of your father reside, Hmmmmmm? Uh, Wordwind, in case I forget, remind me to never cross you. Your friend, Milum.
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#50737
12/26/2001 12:13 PM
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Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Hey, hey, Wof! I'm a woman...
There is, however, that Peanuts girl character who calls another girl, "Sir." Mebbe that's how you're thinkin' this mornin'!
Best regards,
WordWoman
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#50738
12/26/2001 1:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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that Peanuts girl character who calls another girl, "Sir."
It was also standard in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine to refer to officers as sir irrespective of the officer's sex. Probably in other Star Treks of that vintage, too, but DS9 was the only one I watched with any regularity. Ain' nothing particularly sex specific about the term other than the minor fact that it stems from a Latin masculine form of an adjective.
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#50739
12/26/2001 4:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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>to refer to officers as sir irrespective of the officer's sex.
yessiree, bob -- faldage must have been still in a holiday mood to write this way irregardless of what he'd usually type. 8^)
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#50740
12/26/2001 5:07 PM
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Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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irrespective of the officer's sex.tsuwm, would not "gender" have been more precise -- or were you deliberately invoking penumbra?  Btw, I realize that my point is inconsistent with the usage note at http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/G0075900.html -- which itself notes inconsistency of usage. How do others of you conceptualize the linguistic distinction between "sex" and "gender"?
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#50741
12/26/2001 5:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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"Irregardless" - We all know what it means, but many might list it high among their pet peeves. But I wonder what the technical name is for the internal double negative. How about some other words with same problem?
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#50742
12/26/2001 8:44 PM
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Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Sex: male or female, a biological category often confused with
Gender: many examples in many languages, a grammatical category often confused with sex in languages which have adopted the so-called "natural" gender, notably English and Turkish. Many languages have two genders but by no means are they masculine and feminine. Frequently we find the two genders are animate and inanimate. Other languages have many genders, e.g., round objects, long narrow objects, flat objects, etc. In English sex and gender are often considered to be equivalent concepts. Some consider this to be excessive prudery comparable to calling poultry legs drumsticks or placing coverings over piano legs.
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#50743
12/26/2001 8:55 PM
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Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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faldage must have been still in a holiday mood to write this way
FTR. I was going to use irregardless but I figured, hey, give it a rest. Fat Chance!
the full line was irregardless of whether or not the officer was or wasn't male or female or not.
[whiter]AFTR when *I'm being humorous I use Aint for my father's sister (or mother's sister for that matter)[/whiter]
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#50744
12/26/2001 11:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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My, my, and to think this tempest-in-a-teapot started out as a discussion of the arbitrari- and unfair-ness of job-hunting in New York during the Depression, which itself was a pretty far cry from people being unwilling or to shy to speak. One-hundred-eighty degree turnaround ! How often do we do that?
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#50745
12/27/2001 12:43 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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Returning to the original question: Why do we ask, "Cat got your tongue?" But cats getting people's tongues? That just doesn't make any sense to me.
The phrase is clearly a corruption of the standard inquiry made of a person who is so very silent that one wonders whether his-or-her mouth has been sewn shut -- a wonder expressed by the inquiry, "Catgut your tongue?"
(he said facetiously)
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#50746
12/27/2001 1:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Keiva,
Just to keep the record straight, while we imagine this person's lips sewn together, it's really sheep gut, after all. (And then there's the wild, imaginative leap to sheepish--but I'd be contsuwmed, for sure, for that one!)
Best regards,
WordWonderer
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#50747
12/27/2001 2:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Re: Gender-- as in ...many examples in many languages, a grammatical category often confused with sex in languages
which is understandable, since the root word for gender-- gen-- goes back to the idea of giving birth-- and leads to words like genitals... (and even with out that.. the first question asked-- or answered unbidden by anyone attending the birth is "Boy!" or "Girl!" )
and i don't understand why the idea that ..... sex and gender are often considered to be equivalent concepts. Some consider this to be excessive prudery comparable to calling poultry legs drumsticks or placing coverings over piano legs.
I understand excessive prudery-- and how it lead to "white" and "dark" meat, rather than "breast" or "leg"-- but how does the idea that "sex and gender are often considered to be equivalent concepts tie in with excessive prudery? if anything, it seems to do the opposite, and make the concept of gender more "sexual"-- not less..
it seems that gender in language is closer to the meaning of family-- gender defines "families" of words.. and gender could be used to define Animal, vegetable or mineral.. not just masculine and feminine.
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#50748
12/27/2001 2:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear WW: I haven't been in an OR for many years, and so have not idea what suture materials are used today. I suspect however, that nylon and other new synthetic materials have largely replaced gut, except possibly for buried sutures that have to be slowly absorbed.
And I suppose that string music is no longer the tail of a horse being drawn across the entrails of a cat.
It may well be that children are no longer told that dragonflies are darning needles capable of sewing their mouths shut. Most of the dragonfly habitat is now shopping mall.
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#50749
12/27/2001 3:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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And I suppose that string music is no longer the tail of a horse being drawn across the entrails of a cat.Then you clearly haven't been listening to what passes for pop music today, Bill! However, note that, unlike some years ago, the musicians appear to see no need to remove the horse's hair from the horse's tail or the tail from the horse or even to kill the cat first ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#50750
12/27/2001 3:48 PM
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Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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One of the consolations of my deafness is that I am not missing much, considering that ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening to, and the remaining ten percent is hard to find.
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#50751
12/27/2001 4:08 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening too, and the remaining ten percent is hard to find.
Sounds like Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.
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#50752
12/27/2001 4:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Yep. Ah ... does that include this forum, Faldage? ... Never!  And Bill, you said One of the consolations of my deafness is that I am not missing much, considering that ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening to, and the remaining ten percent is hard to find.Not arguing with you, but, um, how do you know? Just askin' ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#50753
12/27/2001 5:15 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear wwh:
The best musicians use Mongolian stallion hair in their bows. There's a world o' learnin' in the art of the bow. Some bows (most often viola) have what's called "salt and pepper" hair--which is the bleached-out white hair mixed with the black Mongolian stallion hair. My daughter's never used the salt and pepper, however, and I don't know personally any violist who does. Some bows (most likely the basses) have all black hair. I always used to ask for stallion hair for my violin bow, and still do for my daughter's viola hair. Then on and on about the types of rosin to use with the hair. There are books on that, too. You can even have your horsehair dyed these days just about any color of the rainbow, but I've only see that in music magazines and never, ever on stage.
But catgut is sheep gut for the strings some strings players use. Catgut (or gut strings--read "sheep") is purportedly harder to keep in tune, and all the synthetics try to approach the sound of gut--but with more carrying power--more projection. I use Tonicas--a synthetic--which sound sweet under the ear, thank heavens, because I'd hate to have anyone other myself listening to me.
Best regards,
DubDub
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#50754
12/27/2001 7:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
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One name for a stringed instrument is “kit” -- from the Latin name for a guitar, cithara. The gut strings of the instrument are therefore “kit guts.” A simple wrong deduction leads to “catgut.”
-- Dictionary of Word Origins, Jordan Almond
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#50755
12/27/2001 11:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
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I used to play a violin quite badly.My deafness has the peculiarity of making symphony orchestras sound out of tune.And I could not entirely escape the vile stuff a grandson played.FThe sick names of groups suggests the level of their output. A comparatively mild one I recently noticed was "Stale Urine." And I estimate that those degenerates write and play ninety percent of the music today.
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#50756
12/28/2001 12:05 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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Dear Sparteye,
I think the crwth is a type of cithara, or vice versa. That was the very first question I ever posted here as a stranger. Memories are made of this. Thanks for the kitgut connection.
Best regards,
WW
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#50757
12/28/2001 4:41 AM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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And Bill, you said One of the consolations of my deafness is that I am not missing much,
considering that ninety percent of the music available isn't worth listening to, and
the remaining ten percent is hard to find.
Not arguing with you, but, um, how do you know? Just askin' ...
So if a song plays in a forest of deaf ears is it still music?
gender bender
So we say, for instance, a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free. [not-a-joke-e]
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd. (I know 'cause this is one of my favorite Scrabble secret weapons!)
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#50758
12/28/2001 9:34 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Dear wwh:
You wrote, And while we're at it, I have never except in jest heard "aunt" pronounced like the appellation of a member of the family Formicidae.
You've been from east coast to west and you've never heard people say, "My Ant Jean," "My Ant Connie"? Every aunt I ever had on my Daddy's side was an ant; and on Mama's, they were aunts. It's all tied up in your bloodlines.
Best regards,
An aunt, who's just called Theresa
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#50759
12/28/2001 10:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Unfortunately, dictionaries are sadly lacking. Here's what I googled up this morning about crwth, after having come up with nada in any of the OneLook references, including the illustrious Mr. Fischer's: Crwth is a generic term denoting several small lyres that flourished in western Britain from the eleventh through early nineteenth centuries. Neither crwth nor its many cognates, partial-cognates, and synonyms necessarily indicate any one particular instrument. Specific denotation depended on time, exact locale, and, in some instances, specific individual. Hence written references to performance must be evaluated with care.
The modern crwth was one of the last of the European bowed yoke lyres. Rather than evolving along a single line in the manner of the viol and violin,, the bowed yoke lyre repeatedly split into varied designs, due in great measure to its having been subjected to much experimentation, structural variance, and disparity of playing technique.http://home.earthlink.net/~llywarch/cth03.htmlBrings whole new meaning and depth (crwth as instrument and also as crowd) to that ol' dark fiddler's novel, Far From the Maddening Crwth, huh? Best regards, DiddleDub, whose gray matter insisted she was correct!
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#50760
12/28/2001 12:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,071 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
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Interesting. I heard this quote attributed to H L Gold (editor of GALAXY Science Fiction) back in the late Fifties, in response to a cranky reader who complained that "Ninety percent of science fiction is crap." Sic transit gloria mundi! Though I'm never sure that my source should be considered more correct than any other...
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#50761
12/28/2001 1:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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Carpal Tunnel
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attributed to H L Gold
Irregardless, it's widely known in science fiction circles as Sturgeon's Law. Theodore Sturgeon, the science fiction writer. The cranky fan remains the instigator of the answer but the venue changes to a science fiction convention.
Sic transit gloria tusdi
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#50762
12/28/2001 1:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
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So we say a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free.
Well, Duh!. It's neuter. Paramecium. Hello?
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd
And for extra credit, crowd (in this context) means?
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#50763
12/28/2001 1:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Faldage writes:
crwth
A noun in Welsh meaning crowd...
and, I iterate, it also means a blooming stringed instrument of many variations. Sheesh! Didn't you see the quote and the link????????
Cranky,
DubDub
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#50764
12/28/2001 1:45 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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So we say a paramecium is asexual, not gender-free.
Well, Duh!. It's neuter. Paramecium. Hello?
Hello? As I read his post, it seemed to me that he was emphasizing how we describe it, and not trying to say what it IS.
Also cranky,
J
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#50765
12/28/2001 1:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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he was emphasizing how we describe it, and not trying to say what it IS.
We describe it as asexual because it IS asexual; we don't describe it as gender-free because it ISn't gender-free. Its gender IS neuter.
QED
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#50766
12/28/2001 1:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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it also means a blooming stringed instrument of many variations
I knew that, I was just wondering if Whitman did.
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