#48587
11/27/2001 1:27 PM
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I spose 'ironic' is one word you could use in reference to some of the greatest people of our time:
Arguably the most intelligent man on the planet - Dr Stephen Hawking - locked in a twisted body and incapable of speech but capable of explaining the complexities of time and space to mere mortals.
And what about Nelson Mandela? Is it not ironic that he was locked away for 25 years, only to wind up the leader of his nation - and working alongside his former captors without recrimination and retribution?
What about that group of people referred to as savants? Almost incapable of operating as independent human beings in many cases but, among other things, variously capable of generating the most extraordinary art works, remembering entire telephone books, replaying complex and lengthy musical pieces after hearing them once and so on.
These kinds of irony bring a lump to my throat.
stales
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#48588
11/27/2001 4:20 PM
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stales,
Hawking could certainly be considered an example of tragic irony. is the Mandela example really irony, or something else...? (I'm thinking irony usually has a negative context)
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#48589
11/27/2001 5:56 PM
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One of my favorite irony lines was Sammy Davis Jr.ostensibly thanking Archie Bunker: "That's very white of you."
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#48590
11/27/2001 7:02 PM
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Too true and too sad, Mr. Stales, but when a situation or circumstance becomes too sad one would think that we would stop calling it "ironic" and call it something else. Personally I resist to the teeth any act that would make me seem Politically Correct, yet I think that someone of words should generate a word that would replace "idiot savant", it is in-apt and mean.
Bye the bye, earlier in this thread the word mycterisum was batted about. I wonder if its origin and meaning could be traced to the word mysterium. The word means "one thousand" and is used by numerologists in need of that particular number to complete a task. It's usage presumably dates back to the early Catholic Church when numbers were more magical and, more so than today, politics elected the pope. One method of disposing of a bad Pope was to connect his name to the number 666, the mark of the beast. Using a conversion scale like A=1, B=2, etc., they then added, subtracted, divided, and multiplied in an attempt to prove his Holiness a beast. One Pope who was considered especially bad, had a name that math-ed out poorly. Try as they might the best the numerologists could do was 1666. But damnit the Pope was bad nonetheless, so they invented the mysterium, subtracted it, and the Pope was disgraced.
Milum.
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#48591
11/27/2001 11:02 PM
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Here's a pretty good definition, though incomplete: " Irony--originally a deceptive form of understatement (from the Greek eiron, a stock comic character who typically equivocated, misled his listeners, or concealed complex meanings behind seemingly simple words); hence an attribute of statements in which the meaning is different--or more complicated--than it seems. A subtle form of sarcasm, verbal irony is a rhetorical device in which the speaker either severely understates his point or means the opposite of what he says (as when a guest politely describes a host's unimpressive wine as "nicely chilled" or a conspicuously dull person is described as "not a likely Mensa candidate." Dramatic irony arises in situations where two or more individuals have different levels of understanding or different points of view. More specifically, it occurs when the audience or certain characters in a play know something that another character does not--as when Oedipus, ignorant that he himself is the person he seeks, vows to track down Laius's killer." http://condor.depaul.edu/~dsimpson/awtech/lexicon.htmlBest regards, Dub
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#48592
11/27/2001 11:24 PM
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here is the best explanation I've found -- I used it when irony was my wwftd:
I tried to find out what irony really is, and discovered that
some ancient writer on poetry had spoken of Ironia, which we
call the drye mock, and I cannot think of a better term for it:
the drye mock. Not sarcasm, which is like vinegar, or
cynicism, which is often the voice of disappointed idealism, but
a delicate casting of a cool and illuminating light on life, and
thus an enlargement. The ironist is not bitter, he does not seek
to undercut everything that seems worthy or serious, he scorns
the cheap scoring-off of the wisecracker. He stands, so to
speak, somewhat at one side, observes and speaks with a
moderation which is occasionally embellished with a flash of
controlled exaggeration. He speaks from a certain depth, and
thus he is not of the same nature as the wit, who so often
speaks from the tongue and no deeper. The wit's desire is to
be funny, the ironist is only funny as a secondary achievement.
- Robertson Davies, The Cunning Man
this is verbal irony, the irony that the Brits say USns don't get, the irony you have to be "more or less brilliant" to get. you won't get much watching US tv.
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#48593
11/27/2001 11:36 PM
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tsuwm
I agree - hence my comment that irony is one word that could be used. I thought pathos may have a place here too, but it's still perhaps not right on the money...
stales
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#48594
11/28/2001 2:37 AM
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I was thinking about the times when the whole board, or rather the posters on a particular thread, have gone off into a flight of fancy; and about our ongoing stories we've tried.
What about somebody starting a story thread with some kind of irony theme? Possibly, each addition should at least try to show some irony in it, or, perhaps one person could write the beginning of a very short story, and anyone who cared to could post an ending with an ironic twist to it.
It's all right with me if this flops--I'm not pushing it on anybody. Just thought I'd throw part of an idea out, since it's been a while since we've done a group effort. Alternative suggestions welcomed. And if the whole thing is a non-starter, that's fine, too.
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#48595
11/28/2001 5:32 AM
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Milum, could you be a bit more specific and let us know which popes were disposed of using numerology?
Bingley
Bingley
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#48596
11/29/2001 11:33 PM
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Milum, could you be a bit more specific and let us know which popes were disposed (by the use) of numerology.
Bingley.
Drat it, Bingley, you caught me, but notice that I didn't say that the pope was disposed I said disgraced. I well know that many of the AWAD members would slap their sweet Granny for the offense of verbing an inappropriate noun but I couldn't find substantiation in my books at home so I called Andy for a ride downtown. (The downtown library is next door to a bar and I refuse to drive drunk.) At length I found the book, a paperback, and retired to the bar to read it...
Archimedes' Revenge. -Paul Hoffman Ballantine Books, 1988.
...in the sixteenth century a German monk named Michael Stifel who dabbled in algebra and number theory, slipped into a book on algebra a peculiar interpretation of the number of the beast. Determined to impugn the character of Pope Leo X, Stifel put His Holiness's name through contortions.
He spelled out the X as DECIMUS (the Latin word for "tenth") and then changed the u to v, in the spirit of the Romans, to get DECIMVS. From LEO DECIMVS, he picked out the Roman numererals-L, D, C, I, M, and V- and for good measure , threw in the X from Leo X. Now, substituting numbers for the Roman numerals, Stifel computed the numerical value of the name: L(50) plus D(500) plus C(100) plus I(1) plus M(1000) plus V(5) plus X(10) = 1,666.
Oops! A thousand too much. So, thought Stifel, the M, whose value is 1,000, must stand for MYSTERIUM ( mystery). By removing the "mystery" he got 666 exactly. With this discovery, he renounced his monastic vows and became a follower of Martin Luther.
Angered by his treasonous discovery the papists threaten to kill him and he took refuge in Martin Luther's house.
To be continued...
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#48597
11/30/2001 2:45 AM
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poor benighted me, I was under the sad misapprehension that mysterium was a hypothetical substance to which a galactic radio emission at 1665(!) megahertz was attributed (until it was identified as an exceptionally strong component of a set of four lines emitted by the hydroxyl (OH) radical). this is, of course, not to be confused with mysterium tremendum, which is a term used to express the overwhelming awe and sense of unknowable mystery felt by those to whom this aspect of being is revealed.
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#48598
11/30/2001 9:27 AM
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tsuwm: Examples, please.
I think of Quakers here, but that's altogether different. (Trembling.)
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#48599
11/30/2001 2:52 PM
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the literal translation of the Latin is 'tremendous mystery'. the phrase has been used by J. S. Huxley and Aldous Huxley, by the Times and by Nature -- these are hints... apply as you see fit (but not lightly, should be used ironically only by and around the brilliant).
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#48600
11/30/2001 3:35 PM
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Please excuse the interuption...
Dear Wordwind, I think Tsuwsm's post above was his attempt at sublime, subtle, humour. Notice that he failed to include references; and the last time Tsuwn was "benighted" he wasn't housebroken. Tsuwn, Dear soul, has yet to learn the use of smiley faces.
Dear Jackie, The continuation of this story will reveal irony textbookus of the third kind.
Archimedes Revenge, continued...
(Stifel was in Martin Luther's house hidding from the Pope.)...Luther was glad to have a new convert but told him to forget the numerological hogwash. Stifel didn't listen and began to comb the Bible for clues as to when the world would end. He convinced himself that doomsday was October 18, 1553, and he delivered sermons on the coming end until he was arrested. As the day came near, his parishioners spent their savings on good eating and good eating. When they woke up on October 19 and the world was still intact, they wanted to kill their deceiver and would have done so had not Luther intervened. But two death threats in one lifetime were enough for Stifil, so he gave up prophesying and devoted himself fully to mathematics. He went on to become one of the outstanding German algebrists of the sixteeth century.
So Mr. Bingly, never let it be said that Milum doesn't document his postings regardless of cost. Let's see...11 gal. at .94 per for Andys pick up truck= $10.94. Checking out books without a library card= $.50. Five Blackjack and Branch at 3.75 per, plus tip= $24.00. Mr. Bingly I care A total of $36.i4 for the rightful proceedures of this board.
Milum.
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#48601
11/30/2001 9:40 PM
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hilum, sorry about the tardiness of my uninterruption -- I was bowling. it's a mystery to me how that automatic scoring thing works. speaking of mysteries, where I grew up the library was located on the outskirts of town, coerectant with a fast food establishment. but it was a small town, so travel expenses were negligible, and you could economize by eating on the same trip. what was contradictional was the barber pole located just between.
-joe bfstplk
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#48602
11/30/2001 10:30 PM
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#48604
12/01/2001 12:30 PM
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Stifel: the other tale: Archie and Edith.
Then there's that tower in Paris...
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#48605
12/01/2001 3:53 PM
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Dear Bingley: I'm glad my URL didn't work for you (though it does for me). My site was more fiction, and yours is full of fact, and immeasurably better than mine. Thank you.
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