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there was some interest in japanese and its connectons with english in other threads.
so i decided to start a thread where all such conversations could take place in one forum.
japanese is a language that absorbs foreign words with ease. but it often adds its own edge to the words it borrows.
english also borrows a lot of japanese words, more than seems obvious at first. of course these words are changed to suit english toungues and prejudices.
let's discuss it all here.
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kamikaze; tsunami; obi; bonsai.
And of course, all the brand names.
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I would like to share a line I read somewhere - which I will never forget.
"The symbol of a true oriental artist is the Fujiyama - calm without, fire within."
I think this is so beautiful!
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tsunami seems a strange word to borrow when english has a perfectly good one already: tidal wave. tsu means harbour according to a dictionary i once checked. nami is wave.
the mt fuji phrase does sound very japanese.
when i was first here i noticed mountains were called "san". not knowing any japanese at all, i assumed it was the same respectful title as given to people (as in "sakezuki lusy san"). i was very disappointed to discover it was just another reading of "yama", mountain.
most kanji have more than one reading. in this case yama is the japanese reading and san the chinese one.
another time i went skiing with a friend and noticed on the car navigation the kanji for "waterless mountain". pretty pleased that i recognised the kanji i read them to him, all in chinese reading: "suimusan". of course i was wrong on all counts! it should be "mizunashiyama", which probably has a better rhythm.
so while westerners often say "fujiyama", this puzzles japanese who would only ever say "fujisan"
(which is also the name of a really nice beer from asahi!)
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tsunami is a much more definitive word for a huge sea wave caused by a great disturbance under an ocean, as a strong earthquake or volcanic eruption. which is to say, there is nothing "tidal" in this definition; calling this phenomenon a tidal wave is somewhat of a misnomer.
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#4742
08/01/2000 12:35 AM
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>>tsunami is a much more definitive word....
Thus spake tsuwm
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And one must never forget bushusuru.
George Bush went to Takeshita and the bears just ate him up!
TEd
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>Thus spake tsuwm
why, tsuitainly! nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!
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i guess tidal wave is a misnomer, but why did people pick that particular misnomer to be changed to a japanese word?
tidal wave is a perfectly good word for a big wave,
just as sunrise is a perfectly good word for the earth turning to reveal the sun.
so i wonder why tidal wave was discarded and who chose tsunami, which literally means harbour wave, in its place?
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#4746
08/01/2000 10:37 AM
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>> >>tsunami is a much more definitive word....
Thus spake tsuwmAnd thus spake the mighty AnnaStrophic! Good one! Though I don't suppose Tsuwm has quite the same effect as what he's named after. 
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>i guess tidal wave is a misnomer, but why did people pick that particular misnomer to be changed to a japanese word?
when the international community started studying these things I'd guess that they wanted something unique to the phenomenon and the Japanese already had a word that applied to it specifically? I know that in Hawaii they have Tsunami Watches and Tsunami Warnings, just as we have for hurricanes and tornadoes in the U.S. it hasn't been that long that the cause of these things has been known; previously they were thought to just be big "tidal" waves.
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>tidal wave is a perfectly good word for a big wave,
>just as sunrise is a perfectly good word for the earth turning to reveal the sun.
> so i wonder why tidal wave was discarded and who chose tsunami, which literally means harbour
>wave, in its place?
Perhaps the reason is the habit of the English language to pick words from where it can. (without much thought as to why). I mean, forest was a perfectly good word why did they have to choose the Indian word Jungle?
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i did a little more finding out about tsunami. there is a word takanami for just a big wave, and the japanese use tsunami for big waves caused by earthquakes. tsu can also mean cliff and shore (but the original meaning may have nothing to do with its current usage).
i think, tsuwm, your explanation sounds reasonable; someone wanted to disabuse us of the notion that these big waves have anything to do with tides. maybe the research was centred in japan, since japan suffers so much from them, and the word was carried over from there?
my next question is:
is there any use for tidal wave anymore?
one more:
does tsunami also mean small waves caused by earthquakes?
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#4750
08/02/2000 10:20 AM
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>>forest was a perfectly good word why did they have to choose the Indian word Jungle?
Avy--I never knew 'jungle' came from India. Thanks. I can only guess that other English-speaking cultures have the same difference in meaning that we do.
If I see the word jungle, I think of the very heavy, lush, tangly green growths in tropical areas, usually heavy with humidity.
I think of a forest as being primarily a very large area covered with mostly trees. There may or may not be any underbrush to impede movement, but where there is, it won't
be as impassable as the undergrowth can be in a jungle.
And I'd say there usually isn't as much humidity, because if there were, the forest would probably be a jungle!
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#4751
08/02/2000 11:34 AM
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Jackie I like your idea of colouring the reference 
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there is a word in japanese "daijoubu" that means "okay".
this word is used all the time and is one of the first words new speakers - and japanese kids - learn.
but japanese has borrowed "okay" in a big way. it can be used pretty much interchangably with daijoubu.
the emphasis is on the second syllbale, and it is often repeated (i think i mentioned before that japanese has a lot of words repeated twice for effect).
so you hear a lot of men saying "okeh okehh" to mean "that's fine".
interestingly the word used when assisting a car back out is "orai" from "all right", the only use of this english word i know.
how do other languages use "okay"?
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>s there any use for tidal wave anymore? sure... the Casual Observer who can't be bothered to learn how to use tsunami! 
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In reply to:
the emphasis is on the second syllbale, and it is often repeated (i think i mentioned before that japanese has a lot of
words repeated twice for effect).
so you hear a lot of men saying "okeh okehh" to mean "that's fine".
Or 'moshi moshi' when answering the phone.....
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>If I see the word jungle, I think of the very heavy, lush, tangly green growths in tropical areas, usually heavy with humidity.
As do I, Jackie, but interestingly enough, the word jungle derives from a Hindi word jangal, wasteland, which comes itself from the Sanskrit word Jangala, meaning wild or arid. So somewhere along the line there was a change of almost 180 degrees! Odd.
TEd
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the word jungle derives from a Hindi word jangal
Is this also where the word jangle comes from?
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> jangal, wasteland, which comes itself from the Sanskrit word Jangala, meaning wild or arid.
Gosh that is news to me. I got to go check that up. Jungle is derived from a sanskrit word as all the north Indian languages are (South indian languages are derived from Tamil). But I really don't think the word originally meant wild or arid. But I could be wrong ...
jun·gle ( jungÆgÃl), n.
1. a wild land overgrown with dense vegetation, often nearly impenetrable, esp. tropical vegetation or a tropical rain forest.
2. a tract of such land.
3. a wilderness of dense overgrowth; a piece of swampy, thickset forestland.
4. any confused mass or agglomeration of objects; jumble: a jungle of wrecked automobiles.
5. something that baffles or perplexes; maze: a jungle of legal double-talk.
6. a scene of violence and struggle for survival: The neglected prison was a jungle for its inmates.
7. a place or situation of ruthless competition: the advertising jungle.
8. Slang. a hobo camp.
[1770–80; < Hindi jangal < Pali, Prakrit jangala rough, waterless place]
Ted you're right! Well - one lives and learns.
In this defination it says that the original word comes from languages Pali and Prakrit - them - I know a bit about. They were people's languages round about the time of Gautam Buddha and earlier. Sanskrit was always the language of learned and not spoken by the common people. And so the language Buddha preached in was Pali. Of course nobody speaks Pali in India anymore. And sankrit is also not spoken by the common people - although it not as dead as Pali. India has 15 major languages and some 700 or more dialects. (numbers off the top of my head, subject to correction) You have to be multi-lingual in India to get by. Almost every Indian knows at least 3 languages. I really don't know how a waterless place got to mean what it does (a forest) even in Hindi. Maybe the chief Anu would know?
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>(South indian languages are derived from Tamil).
That's not right : It is thought that the Dravidian languages are derived
from a language spoken in India prior to the invasion of the Aryans c.1500 B.C.
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rubrick,
moshi moshi is from very polite japanese.
hello, i think, was very casual, and became the common greeting after it was chosen as the telephone word. is that right?
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there is an institution in japan called "nomihodai".
this means "all you can drink". it's very popular with young people. you pay usually about 20 bucks and get an hour or two of continuous beer, cocktails, whisky, nihonshu etc. the cocktails are just syrup mixes with soda of course. but you used to get a full bottle of whisky if you asked - recently just one glass at a time.
the interesting point is that it is often written as "free drink" in english. while i can understand free drink as the general "nomihodai" concept, when it comes to the menu that says "free drinks" it starts to sound like i don't have to pay at all.
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> I really don't know how a waterless place got to mean what it does (a forest).
If we place ourselves back in history to a time where the main signification of "nature" was "the enemy of man", the menacing surroundings, I think we can understand this. Jungle was simply the place where you could not go. It mattered little if this was because of lack of water or impenetrable and useless brush. Nowadays of course, we want to protect the jungle from becoming arid wasteland, and long for the lost paradise called "nature". Words arise from OUR INTERACTION, as humans, with the outside world.
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What exactly is the difference between Hindi and Hindustani? i have recently seen them used in apposition to each other.
JJ
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#4763
08/10/2000 11:57 AM
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>What exactly is the difference between Hindi and Hindustani?
Hindi is a group of vernacular Indic dialects as well as the literary and official language of Northern India.
Hindustani is a group of Indic dialects that includes Urdu and Hindi. Also a native of Hindustan.
Hindustan was a warning that Oliver frequently shouted to his partner.
TEd
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Wseiber > "Words arise from OUR INTERACTION, as humans, with the outside world." Absolutely.
JJ > They are not one and the same. Hindi is what we speak in India, and Hindustani was what the hijackers who hijacked an Air India flight recently, spoke amongst each other. That is all I knew which was a shame so Il'dIU. The URL which talks of this at length is : http://adaniel.tripod.com/hindustani.htm The gist is this : Hindustani was a language of the subcontinent before Partition and originating from the time of the Moghuls (Muslim invaders from present day Afghanistan). After partition the language was split into two languages Hindi and Urdu. Hindi leaning more toward Sanskrit and Urdu towards Persian. Hindi became the language of India and Urdu of Pakistan. Apparently Hindustani has survived in some parts in and around the Kashmir Valley. It could be the original Hindustani or some form of it but it is neither pure Urdu or Hindi. And that is what the hijackers spoke.
Ted > "Hindustan was a warning that Oliver frequently shouted to his partner." Huh..?
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>>Ted > "Hindustan was a warning that Oliver frequently shouted to his partner." Huh..?
"(Be)hind you, Stan!"
TEd
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#4766
08/13/2000 11:09 AM
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>tsu can also mean cliff and shore< (as well as harbour)
The character used for 'tsu' in Japanese is 'jin' in Chinese and means 'ford', as in a place you cross the river or a place of shallow water.
I've always thought of tsunami as being 'ford and wave' - because all the water in front of the wave is sucked up into it.
This makes more sense to me than any of the other meanings, although I can't find 'tsu' as a ford in my Japanese dicitonaries either, William. Do you know someone with a classical Japanese background you could ask?
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#4767
08/13/2000 11:12 AM
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>moshi moshi<
Which is used in a standalone way to answer the telephone and (as far as I know) for nothing else.
But 'moshi' on its own means 'if' and I knew various Japanese who delighted in picking up the phone and announcing into it 'if if'...
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#4768
08/13/2000 11:16 AM
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>hurricanes and tornadoes in the U.S.< While we're on the subject of weather, what distinguishes a huricane from a tornado from a typhoon from a cyclone? (and BTW typhoon is another Chinese word - big wind )
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#4769
08/13/2000 11:20 AM
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'Walkman'
I believe the word was coined by a Japanese engineer at Sony. From two English words, obviously. It has now come back into the English language, with a meaning you would be hard pressed to establish from its constituent parts. Now that's what I call cross-fertilisation!
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without getting into the meteorological finepoints (which you could look up :), cyclone is the generic term for the wind pattern, typhoon and hurricane are regional names for tropical cyclones, and tornadoes are land-based.
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Bridget,
i tried finding out about tsunami but no one seems to know. often these kanji have ancient origins that don't necessarily mean in compounds what they mean by themselves.
another example is your typhoon, which doesn't mean big wind. the "tai" is the same tai as in sen"dai" and "tai"wan.
just why this kanji, connected with wind means typhoon, i will try to find out.
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i've got a feeling the "if if" thing was a joke. moshi moshi comes from "moushimasu", an old way of saying "shaberimasu", like "i'm talking". the same moushi comes up in "moushiwakenai", which you probably heard a few times.
on a sillier note did you ever notice that if you answer the phone "washing machine!" in japan, no one notices?
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<<It has now come back into the English language, with a meaning you would be hard pressed to establish from its constituent parts.>>
Walkman is a registered trade mark of the Sony Corp - its a bit naughty to use it when you mean "portable personal stereo". Not quite as elegant I agree. Sorry, didnt mean to be a trademark-Nazi, but I don't think that Walkman has yet gone the way of refrigerator, cellophane, etc, and become generic.
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Thanks Ted and Avy for the Hindi v Hindustani point
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#4776
08/15/2000 11:28 AM
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<on a sillier note did you ever notice that if you answer the phone "washing machine!" in japan, no one notices?>
William, since people seem to have stopped listening anyway, my guess is that you could answer "washing machine" in any country and no one would notice.
By the way, did you hear the one about the phone being answered with: "Hello! This is the fridge; the answering machine is on holidays."
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