#47148
11/17/2001 11:00 PM
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schwa 7*w9, *v98
n.
5Ger < Heb sheva, a diacritic marking silence instead of a vowel sound6
1 the neutral mid-central vowel sound of most unstressed syllables in English: the sound represented by a in ago, e in agent, i in sanity, etc.
2 the symbol (!) for this sound, as in the International Phonetic Alphabet and this dictionary
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#47149
11/18/2001 12:23 AM
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Thanks for the dictionary definition, Dr. Bill. Those who needed to LIU won't need to now if they read your post. Schwas are convenient and correct to describe certain English vowel sounds in unstressed syllables. But I also wonder, along with tsuwm, wassup with using a schwa in one-syllable word?
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#47150
11/18/2001 5:25 AM
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Thanks for the forte link, faldage. Interesting that the original pronunciation is now so uncommon that it sounds incorrect...and why is the original suddenly being used again? However, I know I've seen it spelled with that pesky é in respectable publications and some dictionaries over the years. Could it be because the now-preferred pronunciation sounds French?
employee/employe We have an editor of a weekly here on the Jersey Cape who demands his writers spell employee with one "e". This gentleman is well into his seventies so this is not some young upstart, and his explanation is simply that employe is correct and the extra "e' is a wasted letter, or something to that effect. According to the dictionaries the one-e spelling is acceptable, but we can never get used to writing or seeing it. I've never seen it spelled this way before or since. Has anyone else ever encountered employe? Please note it is still pronounced the same, so I guess this is embarking on a different variation...is there a word for this linguistic twist, tsuwm?
aunt An obvious example missed. The awnt, ant pronunciations for aunt I generally take to be a Brit/USN thing, although sometimes it just seems to be a matter of preference (or the haughtiness of class when used by the Blue Book society set here in the US).
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#47151
11/18/2001 7:31 AM
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#47152
11/18/2001 2:53 PM
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Most Zildians pronounce it "ahnt", an exact homophone of "aren't"
As do New Englanders.
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#47153
11/18/2001 3:31 PM
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veteran
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Wll, thn, lt's jst drp vwls ltgthr! Isn't there precedent, as in ancient Hebrew?
I just got a call from Colin Vowel, Geoff. He says casualization is one thing. He strips down to his stripes for bed-time duty and has a son to prove it. But, disem-vowelment is something else entirely. And he will have none of it. That is, he is in favor of more vowels rather than none at all. I thanked him for his call, Geoff. I never argue with anyone above my pay-grade.
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#47154
11/18/2001 4:55 PM
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stranger
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stranger
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I just got a call from Colin Vowel, Geoff.
Vowels in retreat: uoiea
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#47155
11/18/2001 5:07 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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May I inquire as to the military/political implications of frequent Vowell movements?
Do you, General Vowell, perchange live in Flushing? Being of high rank, you are an Upper Vowell, thus above the need to live in Flushing, but what of those in your family who comprise the lower Vowells?
And isn't your given name spelled Colon? And isn't your illegitimate son named SemiColon?
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#47156
11/18/2001 8:46 PM
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stranger
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stranger
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Vowel movements?
A very good use of vowels. And also very clever! [kudos]
Vowels in FULL retreat: yuoiea
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#47157
11/18/2001 11:13 PM
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The full regiment in retreat: wyuoiea
And doesn't Wyuoiea sound like an Irish name? How would we pronounce it, Teddy Bear Gallant?
Dub
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#47158
11/19/2001 8:18 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Question: does anyone pronounce
Wednesday any way other than Wens-day?
I'm surprised that our irish teddy bear has been quiet on this one. When I grew up in an Irish part of the North of England. The Irish contingent tended to say "wed-n-sday" with a definite "d", which reminds me of a another word "fil-um" for "film". So I'd say that asking someone to say "do you want to see the filum on Wed-n-sday" was a good way of spotting an Irish influence.
My knowlege isn't sophisticated enough to know if this was only Southern Irish Catholics or whether Northern Protestants would use the same.
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#47159
11/19/2001 8:27 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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As for the aks for ask switch, I've observed this almost entirely among US blacks. I've also heard people use a short a, while others use a long a when saying "ask." Who says which?
In the UK, axe for ask is invariably an African Caribbean usage (or whatever the new version of Afro-Caribbean is), I used to hear it a lot when I lived in London. I also heard if from Southern Black Americans (again, I'm not sure of their current self-definition) from my days of working on the musical "One Mo' Time" (what joy!), I picked up a lot of useful language, most of it unrepeatable. At that stage realised that there were some words that were not OK to be used by a mere "honky" even in jest. Anyone for the black bottom?
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#47160
11/19/2001 8:32 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>The change of tyu, dyu to chu, ju in British English has gone through three stages.
I'm definitely in the ju camp until I tried to say "During the day, the jury made their decision" in which case I repeat the sentance, "correcting" the "ju" to "dyu". I suppose we tend to change our emphasis in our pronunciation if we need to make a destinction clear.
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#47161
11/19/2001 8:40 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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aunt An obvious example missed. The awnt, ant pronunciations for aunt I generally take to be a Brit/USN thing, although sometimes it just seems to be a matter of preference (or the haughtiness of class when used by the Blue Book society set here in the US).
In the UK it is just another of the North/South short vowel/long vowel divide.
I always find it interesting that in Scotland, a long vowel used by an English person is seen a sign of "snootiness" and "Englishness" whereas in the South of England, everyone would cut the Graaas, regardless of claaas.
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#47162
11/19/2001 9:07 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Have any of you observed mispronunciations becoming acceptable in your lifetime? I'd be curious to read here about your observations. (I've read cross-references on this topic in the search section, by the way, but I'm raising this as a separate subject on how the unacceptable in our language have become (or are becoming) acceptable.
I suppose that we are much more aware of alternative pronunciations than the ones we grew up with, with we tend to regard as "correct". There is really nothing correct or incorrect about where the emphasis is placed in a word when two groups have developed independently and come up with a different interpretation. We spoke a long time ago about Bill Bryson's wonderful "Mother Tongue" and how some American words and speech are older than the words which replaced them in Britain (the use of gotten for example).
When I was young and foolish I would rail against American pronunciation of words. As an aside, I still dislike a fake accent. Compare Dick Van Dyke's "Mary Poppins" Cockney, widely regarded as hilariously bad, to Gwyneth Paltrow's heroic efforts. There are plenty of examples of Brits trying to sound American with greater or lesser success. This weekend there was a wonderful concert by Robbie Williams (the musician, not Robin, sadly he has never made it in the USA, and proved that even in a glamourous concert with black tie audience at the Albert Hall on BBC1 just after nine o'clock on a Saturday night, it really is Ok to broadcast the word f***, to link to an earlier thread ) singing Sinatra songs and varying between a "New Yoyk" accent and pure Stoke on Trent. It reminded me we don't grow up with the pure influences of our great grandparents. My parents sang "My Way" a lot more often than "The White Cliffs of Dover" and our ways of speaking evolved as a result.
One of the things that struck me in the early days of this group was whilst those of us in the rest of the world would recognise a North American variation as just that, a variation. Some of those from the US would fail to reciprocate. I think that we have moved on and I'm glad that it no longer only left to the Brits to point out our regional variations.
So part of the alternatives that we accept are to do with regional variations. I don't like the sound of "nucular", for example, but I no longer regard a person who uses it as an idiot.
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#47163
11/19/2001 6:06 PM
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Posts: 428
addict
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addict
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which reminds me of a another word "fil-um" for "film".
My grandfather (Phil, coincidentally) is of Irish descent and pronounces "film" in just that way, but other than that he has no trace of an Irish brogue. He also pronounces words like "bottle" and "metal" like "bah'll" and "meh'll" (with the ' signalling a glottal stop) which always sounds like an old-fashioned Boston accent to me. My brother and I rib him about his Boston accent by asking him if he got a "meh'll" (medal) for raising "cah'll" (cattle) in the "wah" (war). And, no he didn't.
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#47164
11/19/2001 6:47 PM
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Dick Van Dyke's "Mary Poppins" Cockney, widely regarded as hilariously bad
About the same time as the Dick Van Dyke effort there was a widely used British version of a generic American accent that was perhaps equally humorous, combining a sort of rough approximation of a Texas accent with a rough approximation of a New England accent. There was a character in the movie White Nights who had that accent. He was supposed to be an American Embassy official who was from Minnesota. Interestingly, after a one week long trip to Russia in 1994 everyone seemed to have that accent back here in the States. The master of accents is, of course, Tracey Ullman, but she doesn't do accents, she does people and the people have accents.
Robbie Williams [white](the musician, not Robin[/white]
Robin Williams (of Robin and Linda Williams) *is a musician.
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#47165
11/19/2001 7:14 PM
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lucy says: have noticed on some US television programmes that 'participants' often pronounce 'ask' as 'aks' ... Is this the norm?
IMHO, that pronunciation is exclusive to and common among members of the black community. lucy, as you watch the shows, let me know if this comports with your observations.
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#47166
11/19/2001 9:17 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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>Tracy Ullman Yes, I meant to mention her, one of our better exports. These days we only see her on Ally McBeal, her accent made her blend in too well. I still think the worst British accent is that dreadful woman from Frasier who claims to be British but sounds like no accent I have ever heard.Off topic, I know but an interesting exercise in where the boundaries lie, it looks like the Robbie Williams (a musician not the actor) concert got a bit of a response:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/tv_and_radio/newsid_1664000/1664540.stm
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#47167
11/20/2001 2:36 AM
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Well, WON, after buttoning up my spats, adjusting my pince-nez and dusting off my beaver top hat, I have to confess that I use 'employe' to refer to one male, 'employes' for two or more males, employee' for one female, and 'employees' for two or more females or two or more of both genders. A European would probably use the masculine version for mixed gender, but I use the feminine because it's more familiar to most people than the masculine, which seems to be entirely unfamilar to you. Yet it has not been that long since it was downright incorrect to refer to a man as an employee.
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#47168
11/20/2001 2:49 AM
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So, if employe is male and employee is female in some circles, what about referee? Is refere male and referee female?
Wordcoach
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#47169
11/20/2001 3:08 AM
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Hmmm...interesting, BobY (or "The Cobalt Avenger" as I once dubbed thee!  ) So if there is a gender basis for this form deferential (which sounds something akin to the German Die and Der for feminine and masculine connotation respectively) why doesn't this translate into other nouns with the same suffix usage such as payee, referee, attendee, etc.? Do you (or tsuwm?) have a citation that stipulates this usage in English, it would be intersting to see it. Or is it just a sort of common consensus thing like actor and actress, where, now, it seems, except for the Academy Award categories, actor is the word of choice for all thespians, with women using it in self-description as readily as men. But, then, we could never scrap princess for prince, could we? And when, approximately, did the gender forms of employe/ee fall out of favor in usage? You are now the second person next to our editor, BobY, that I ever heard of using this form! Thanks for the elucidating background on this! 
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#47170
11/20/2001 3:14 AM
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#47171
11/20/2001 3:28 AM
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Time for a bit of ribaldry, WO'n: "But, then, we could never scrap princess for prince, "
And the majority of batchelors would not trade their mistress for a mister.
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#47172
11/20/2001 3:56 AM
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It's not like payee, referee, etc., or not exactly. It is, of course, a noun formed from the past participle of the French verb employer = to employ. So un employé is a (male) person employed; une employée is a (female) person employed. These were originally both taken up into English and originally used the accent mark, which is now usually not used. There are others; divorce/divorcee come to mind. (I have to admit that I don't believe I've ever seen the masculine form of divorcee more than once and I don't believe I would ever use it.)
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#47173
11/20/2001 6:25 AM
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this is quite interesting. OED2 has two separate entries for these:
employé - One who is employed. (In Fr. use chiefly applied to clerks; in Eng. use gen. to the persons employed for wages or salary by a house of business, or by government.) Hence also employée, a female employé.
employee - orig. U.S.
[f. employ + -ee.]
a. A person employed for wages; = employé, which it has now virtually superseded. b. (nonce-use.) Something that is employed.
so, if this is to be credited, we have two separate words with unique derivations -- the U.S. entry formed in the usual manner of adding -ee.
some years ago I remember seeing the 'employe' spelling (with no accent) in our company newsletter. they used it consistently for some time, but then it fell out of vogue again.
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#47174
11/20/2001 7:46 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Born 18 April 1961, London, England, UKBrought up in East Grinsted, West Sussex (a long way from Manchester), moved to LA 1981 Yes, I know, I'm afraid the use of the word "claims" is pure prejudice (mine). According to her fan site biography http://here.at/JaneLeeves, when they cast her as Daphne, the producers didn't know what a Manchester accent sounded like! Her accent is politely described as "posh" - the correct term is "weird". For a good Northern accent, try Jane Horrock's "Bubble" in Absolutely Fabulous.
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#47175
11/20/2001 11:54 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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ask or ax?
In my youth (Ah! many years ago W.G & A.S) the use of "ax" was deemed to be a totally West of England rural pronunciation, as in, "Oi axed 'er to marry Oi, but 'er said 'er 'ud ev to ax 'er Dad. So Oi sez to 'er, Oi sez, 't'aint yer Dad as Oi wants to ax ter marry Oi!' "
The rest of the country, by and large, said "ask."
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#47176
11/20/2001 2:35 PM
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"Oi axed 'er to marry Oi, but 'er said 'er 'ud ev to ax 'er Dad. So Oi sez to 'er, Oi sez, 't'aint yer Dad as Oi wants to ax ter marry Oi!' "
What a lovely piece of English! Note particularly the use of the nominative Oi in the objective case and the objective/possesive 'er in the nominative. So, tell us Rhuby, is Oi axing 'er to be Oi's wife, or is Oi axing 'er to be Oi wife?
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#47177
11/20/2001 2:48 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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#47178
11/20/2001 3:42 PM
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Yes--the Ask to aks is currently a characteristic of Black English-- but this is just a sub set of rural american english-- that includes Purty (or pertty, or any other varient spelling for Pretty)-- and YCLU the term for this sort of shifting of sounds.. i thought it was interesting, but not so interesting that i remember the term..
some other thread (or is it the beginning of this one.?) points out Brid-- has changed into Bird by the same process.
and curiously, to my ear I say Juring for During..but when i did an informal survey-- most people heard me say during-- yet i hear the sound as very different.. but not quite as changed as "Did you eat?" is in the expression "Jeet?" (but Jyeet might be a better spelling..) but getting there.
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#47179
11/20/2001 3:55 PM
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#47180
11/20/2001 4:00 PM
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and YCLU the term for this sort of shifting of sounds
Metathesis. It's the same process that gave us bird from brid.
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#47181
11/20/2001 9:31 PM
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Thanks, tsuwm! Oi! What an intriguing dilemma! So, actually, anyone in editorial authority could arbitrarily decree the use of either form and be correct.
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#47182
11/21/2001 1:14 AM
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I have been trying and trying to remember the particulars of a class I had in college that dealt with Black American dialect. The only thing I can remember is that several studies were done of a dialect from the mid-Atlantic coast area(real specific, aren't I  )that incorporated African grammer and some simular vocabulary with slave English. Aks was one of these words. It follows a natural African progression, somehow. If I can find my notes from that class..........Maybe someone else has heard of these studies?
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#47183
11/21/2001 2:20 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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incorporated African grammar and some similar
vocabulary with slave English. Aks was one of these words.
Interesting. Just to ad spice to this stew, I have known two black Caribbeans (One from Belize, formerly British Honduras, and one from one of the former French islands) Neither of them said aks; rather, they said ahsk. Both of these places acquired their Africans as slaves, yet their pronunciations were distinctly British.
Might we conclude that cutural isolation had something to do with the development of aks?
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#47184
11/21/2001 5:37 PM
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#47185
11/21/2001 8:31 PM
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Consuelo, Do you mean Gullah? it is a varient of english particular to the the coastal island of the Carolinias.. (north? south? one of them)
Hilton Head has been developed, but basically, from George (maybe even florida) there are a series of breakwater islands.. low flat dunes, with shallow bays and then the main land.. Whitman is on (or near) one in NJ.. I know all of NY's by name.. but only Hilton Head -- and Sea Isle-- as in sea isle cotton-- south of NJ (i know some of NJ barrier islands --Atlantic City is one one.. if you have ever driven there.. you know there is only one way in.. a causeway across the bay.)
all of them are low and frequently flooded in hurricane season. many barrier island are very isolated. the former slaves who remained on these island, grew more and more isolated.. and there english retains elizabethian vocabulary.. but also include some words from their former african languages..
gullah has been studied since it is supposed that not only do the speakers have elizabethian vocabularies, but also they retain old meanings, and pronounciations..
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#47186
11/22/2001 3:34 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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The one that irks me most is the ever increasing usage of "dee-fence" rather than the original "d'fence".Okay, I know I'm a bit behind, but I've been both busy with school and not feeling well, therefore AWAD got left by the wayside for a little while. stales, would it make you feel better to know that dee-fence is also the way you'd say it in hockey in Canada? As in "I play defense". Or the opposing team gets the puck, the defenseman (or defensewoman, if it were my team and I was on the ice) is way out of position, the guy's about to have a breakaway, and people yell..."Who's on D?" Not "Who's on Duh?" Similarly I hear offense pronounced with the first "o" like "owe". It fits when you're saying "offense and defense". But it's actually quite awkward; I think I prefer the awe-fense pronounciation. Just my two cents (or 1.2 cents US$).
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#47187
11/22/2001 4:59 PM
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Alexander Theroux, Paul Theroux the travel writer's brother, is the snootiest of the snooty, bar none. He criticizes, in one of his works of fiction, certain characters' use of "fordy" for "forty," "thirdy-five" for "thirty-five," and so on.
I listen hard to the speech here in central Virginia, and I would say I rarely, if ever, hear the "t" enunciated in thirty and forty, although it's there often in fifty, sixty, seventy, etc. However, in numbers such as forty-five, I hear "fordy-five." I attribute this to the alacrity of the tongue itself rather than ignorance, especially in the enunciation of numbers. We more often hear "liddle" rather than "little." These don't get my quince up as does "crown" for "crayon."
Best regards,
WW, who's gedding ready for about thirdy dinner guests, big and liddle
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