#46170
10/28/2001 7:28 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
I came across the word pantomath in a newspaper feature on Dr Jonathan Miller, for whom it is very fitting. It's an obvious word to use, of clear meaning, even if you'd never seen it before. However, a web search throws up no occurrences. Has anyone encountered it before? It would be surprising if it was invented for the article.
|
|
|
#46171
10/28/2001 7:51 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear NW: It seems clear that pantomath refers to an order of intelligence higher than polymath. Dr. Jonathan Miller must be truly extraordinarily gifted. I too could not find it in Internet.
PS: After reading his bio, I wonder if the title merely meant he was a polymath in the entertainment field.
|
|
|
#46172
10/28/2001 8:54 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
what every pantomath means, i wish we had more Johathan Miller's involved in arts and entertainment. what ever his had touches, becomes remarkable.
but its not clear.. panto, i would think for language, or perhaps entertainment, math, in this context skilled.
so rather than having poly skills, he has many skills in language/spoken arts? it would surrize me in the good doctor used it, during the interview, and the reported just didn't look it up..
|
|
|
#46173
10/29/2001 1:37 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
But then you probably find philomathic an obvious word, too.
And where would you expect to find the Ulysses Philomathic Library?
|
|
|
#46175
10/29/2001 9:43 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Isn't the pantomath the guy who sits in a laundry counting underwear? Just asking, loike.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#46176
10/29/2001 10:12 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#46177
10/30/2001 1:09 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
redundancy scheme.
What the heck is that?
Sweetie, I've picked it up from context, from Brit-speaking friends. Redundancy occurs when an employer's ability to pay all of the employees drops. The employer lays people off if attrition isn't sufficient. Those laid off are
"redundant".
|
|
|
#46178
10/30/2001 4:39 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
I think severance pay is the USn equivalent.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
#46179
10/30/2001 9:49 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#46180
10/31/2001 1:14 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
In my penultimate life as a Recruitment Consultant I was approached by many folk who'd lost their jobs through company "restructuring". Inevitably they'd say, "I've been made redundant" - and were then surprised to get a gentle chiding from me that their choice of words was not helping their self esteem.
I always explained that they were certainly NOT redundant, rather the position they'd held had become redundant and they'd been retrenched.
A simple thing, but I believe once they'd told a lot of people they were redundant they'd soon start to believe it.
stales
|
|
|
#46181
11/02/2001 1:47 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
careful with superlatives! A pantograph, to mention an analogon, is not the one who has written everything  .
|
|
|
#46182
11/02/2001 4:01 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
I used to drive a pantechnicon. It was "pan-" because it would hold everything (especially furniture}: but why "-technicon"?
Any ideas?
|
|
|
#46183
11/02/2001 4:48 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
here's a clue: it stems from pantechnic, pertaining to all the arts.
|
|
|
#46184
11/02/2001 5:15 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
moving men are artists? i mean aside from being scam artists, as they often are here ?--i am sure you were not , Rhu!
|
|
|
#46185
11/02/2001 9:59 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
moving men are artists?
Yes, Helen, and in my experience they are from the deconstructionist school, especially when they are moving my furniture ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#46186
11/03/2001 6:04 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
ie - having enormous spacial acuity?  Like the ultimate "tetris" player, I picked up an art from the old man, who while working for a major "document company" developed the ability to fill every last cubic inch of the trunk of his company car with copier parts in boxes of a hundred different sizes. I've extroplated this *game into retrograding certain melodic fragments to fit into predesignated harmonic structures... not like tonality is/was a goal, but.
|
|
|
#46187
11/03/2001 7:46 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Sorry musick, but your post is a collection of words.. i understand the individual words, and but i got lost when you moved from spacial acuity (which i have) to a game into retrograding certain melodic fragments to fit into predesignated harmonic structures... not like tonality is/was a goal, but.
HUH?
hint--pantechnion is to moving truck as lorry is to truck-- and while i realize spacial acuity is good skill for anyone whose job it is to pack as much into as little space as possible.. what does this have to do with mucic?
|
|
|
#46188
11/03/2001 8:43 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
As music (believe me, I wanted to iterate your typo  ) is *often about time, it naturally wanders into a question of space (let us not start that thread again) and, as a composer of music using serial techniques (usually atonal *sounding), I often have predetermined the *space and harmonic context in which to fit a group of notes ... lending credence to the definition as "all of the arts" (not that serial music is specifically *artistic, but.)
|
|
|
#46189
11/04/2001 8:50 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Keven, whatever you're on, it sounds very nice. Can I have some?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#46190
11/04/2001 4:03 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>whatever you're on [to musick]
oh, he's just a Shadrach of his former self, forged in the fiery furnace of felicific calculus, I'm guessing. (but that's just me.)
|
|
|
#46191
11/04/2001 6:50 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
...former self... There is none of that left... at least not on this side of the pond.
...felicific calculus.... Bingo! ...but who here purports the personification of Nebuchadnezzar?
|
|
|
#46192
11/04/2001 7:55 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
as a composer of music using serial techniques..., I often have predetermined the *space and harmonic context in which to fit a group of notes ... Okay--I think I understand. Musick, tell me if I've gotten it wrong, please. Here goes: let's say, Sweet musick, that you have a block of notes that for convenience's sake I will say is ABCDE (though I think we should imagine a set many times that length, and with many more variations than I will show). So--perhaps you open your piece with ABCDE; or perhaps you have an introductory section first; it doesn't matter. I think that what you are aiming for is to insert ABCDE in all its variations repeatedly into your piece, and that you must somehow ensure that you have enough "spaces" between the filler sections to allow for whatever variation you want in a particular place, all the while needing to ensure that there is at least some reasonable continuity between the sections--a rationale, as it were (I almost said not discordant, but realized it could sound literally discordant, but still be a logical next step, musically/mathematically.) So if you want a variation of say, AaBbCcDdEe, you'd need that much space between the two relevant sections. Golly--I bet sometimes, you might have to play notes stacked up on each other, to fit them all in!
|
|
|
#46193
11/04/2001 8:25 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Although inversion, retrograde and retrograde-inversion are three *major permutations of an original melodic fragment which some strict serialists insist as the only ones available (in 'pure' form, of course) ... I'm sure, by now, you'd be able to guess what I think about that *ideal. However, those are only one of many tools to use in an infinite number of constructs, of which your description has just begun to suppose. ...reasonable continuity... I wouldn't go that far. ...notes stacked up on each other......and as I'm sure you have summated, this takes what would *normally be melodic into the realm of harmony (farbeit from me to mix the two). Anyway, in a previous post one of my intents were to "repopularize" retrograde as a verb. I'm summizing my own failure...
|
|
|
#46194
11/05/2001 7:34 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Hi musick,
This suggests to me that you must have heard of fractals (Term coined by B. Mandelbrot, but phenomenon known since around 1900). I never heard it applied to music, but there could be a vein to explore..
|
|
|
#46195
11/05/2001 8:29 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#46196
11/05/2001 12:50 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Dubdub, I tried your site--way cool, thank you! I thought they had probably misspelled a word in the list--good thing for me that I looked it up!
Fabrics with this style of design are called "bizarre silk." Earlier in this century they were thought to have been made in India, but further research has shown them to be the product of an economic war between France and Italy from about 1690 to 1715.
During the seventeenth century, in an attempt to achieve French economic dominance in Europe, Louis XIV's minister Colbert began a campaign to encourage the manufacture of luxury goods. Various incentives, including tax advantages induced skilled artisans to move to france. Until this time Italy had been the premier silk-producing country. Silk cloth was expensive and popular with the European nobility; dominance in the silk trade represented large sums of money. As the French appeared to be taking over, in the 1690's the Italians made a last attempt to regain the market, creating the unique designs that today are called "bizarre."
|
|
|
#46197
11/07/2001 12:03 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
wsieber - The serialists I spoke of were (from what I can remember) following the same lead as were the radical mathematicians of that time. WW - The scale (extent) in which Bach had (even a chance) to play with diminution is/was so insignificant that the term barely applies(IMHO). His use of rhythm was restricted in many ways, most of them by his own historical circumstance. Although it seems as if it is possible to recreate these approaches to structure with some amount of *reflective success, unlike the eye, the ear just isn't developed enough where these would make "sense"...
|
|
|
#46198
11/07/2001 12:18 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
|
|
|
#46199
11/07/2001 1:03 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
...composed more notes... I'll leave you to answer in your own words... Does the word "summized" replace "summated", or does the "-ize" represent a completely different view? WW-I'm changing the subject from Bach because it is *clear that most here have different views of his "skill" than I, and I prefer peaceful coexistence with the dead...
|
|
|
#46200
11/07/2001 2:04 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
convelling the subject bach to RC's question I used to drive a pantechnicon. It was "pan-" because it would hold everything (especially furniture}: but why "-technicon"?
A word, invented as the name of a bazaar of all kinds of artistic work [see previous comment on pantechnic], which has (through the fortune of the building) come to be applied to a large warehouse for storing furniture, and also to be colloquially used as short for pantechnicon van, a furniture-removing van.
1830 Mech. Mag. XV. 393 Pantechnicon [Heading of Article, describing the building, in Motcomb Street, Belgrave Square, which was originally intended for a bazaar, and was afterwards converted into a warehouse for storing furniture].
hope you guys enjoyed yourselves on your bachanal.
|
|
|
#46201
11/07/2001 9:28 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Yeah, but his output under said circumstances was so damned prodigious, as was his output of progeny!
Hm. And he was such a little bloke. You don't think that maybe his wife ... nah, wouldn't happen.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#46202
11/07/2001 9:37 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
His use of rhythm was restricted in many ways, most of them by his own historical circumstance.Wasn't he so lucky, then, to have later performers/composers/arrangers such as Jethro Tull and Sky to ease those restrictions for him? Bach wrote a lot of rubbish as well as the brill stuff. Most of the 48 preludes and fugues in the Well-tempered Clavier suite are eminently forgettable. Except, at least, for the prelude in C# Major, which I taught myself to play on the piano because I like it so much. My parents, piano-teachers both, usually managed to find somewhere else to be when I was playing it ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#46203
11/08/2001 3:41 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Lord, y'all don't give old J.S. credit where due. (Or the mesdames Bach either.) Some clarifications:
1. Bach, more than anyone else, gets the credit for the adoption of tempered tuning. While he was not its inventor or its only proponent, his stature was such that when he championed it, and used it to tune organs and other keyboard instruments, it was quickly adopted universally. For those of you not familiar with the subject, tempered tuning is a compromise tuning method which allows an instrument to be played in any key, as compared to natural tuning where an instrument is tuned to a particular key, say C-major, which is fine if you are going to play in that key, or in a closely related key like a-minor or G-maj., but which won't sound right if you try to play in A-flat-maj. or c-sharp min. or some other unrelated key.
2. Bach was the first keyboard player to use the thumbs. Earlier keyboard players used only the fingers, stretched out straight and flat over the keys, which made for some really involved fingerings. Bach not only used the thumbs but also kept his fingers curved over the keys, as is the method drummed into every piano student today.
3. J.S. had 19 children in all, by two wives. The first, Barbara Bach, was the mother of Wilhelm Friedemann and Carl Philip Emmanuel, both notable artists and composers in their own right; she died after eight children. Her husband was away on a trip with his employer when she died; he came home to find she had been buried a week earlier. The second Frau Bach, Anna Magdalena, was made of sterner stuff; she bore 11 children, including Johann Christian, the "London" Bach, who was 16 when his father died. He went to Italy to study and converted to Catholicism, which must have had The Old Wig (as the boys called him) turning over in his staunch Lutheran grave.
4. J.S. Bach's greatest work was "Die Kunst der Fuge", or The Art of Fugue, which he wrote at the end of his life, literally finishing it on his deathbed, if his son Friedemann is to be believed. It is the last word on the Baroque polyphonic style in general and the art of fugue-writing in particular, and, as such, was out of date the day it was done, since polyphonic music, including fugues, was already going out of style in 1750. The work takes a simple subject melody and applies all known treatments, including inversion, retrogression, inversion-retrogression, etc. (see Musick's post above in which he mentions these techniques), also using different time arrangements, switching back and forth from square time to double time to triple time. After a large number of fugues, having exhausted all possibilities of his subject, which is a simple, solemn and rather mournful tune, he introduces, in another voice, another subject, the B-A-C-H motif, which is B-flat-A-C-B in our notation, the only time in his life he ever used the tune composed of the letters of his name. This goes for only a few lines and then the work stops dead in mid-phrase, since, according to Friedemann, it was at that point that he died. He dictated the entire work to his wife and one of his daughters, as he had gone blind and was dying as the result of an infection from an unsuccessful cataract operation (performed without anesthesia, which was unknown in 1750).
|
|
|
#46204
11/08/2001 9:41 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
I've read that Bach had 21 and 22 children...some died in childbirth or very young. My sources are from long ago, so I am curious now about the discrepancy in Boby's reference. Curiosity is now aroused...
|
|
|
#46205
11/09/2001 4:19 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
On checking to give the facts to WW, I find I erred. Albert Schweitzer, in his monumental biography, J.S. Bach, says the following:
Of the thirteen children that Anna Magdalena bore to him, seven died; at his own death, of his twenty children only nine were living -- five sons and four daughters*. The oldest son of Anna Magdalena, Gottfried Heinrich, was of weak intellect. ...
*Two sons (Wilhelm Friedemann and Carl Philipp Emmanuel) and one daughter (Catharina Dorothea) were of the first marriage; the third son of Maria Barbara, named J.G. Bernhard, died at Jena in 1738 [having been organist at Mühlhausen at age 20 and later at Sangershausen]. Of Anna Magdalena's children there survived him: Gottfried Heinrich (1724-1763), Elisabeth Juliane Friederike (b. 1726, d. ?), Johann Christoph Friedrich (1732-1795), Johann Christian (1735-1782), Johanna Caroline (1737-1781), and Regine Susanna (1742-1809).
The following children of Anna Magdalena all died at Leipzig: Christiana Sophie Henriette (b.1723, d. 29 June 1726); Christian Gottlieb (b. 1725 d. 21 Sept 1728); Ernestus Andreas (d. 1 Nov. 1727 soon after birth); Regine Johanna (b. 1728, d. 25 Apr. 1733); Christiana Benedicta (d. 4 Jan. 1730 soon after birth); Christiane Dorothea (b. 1731, d. 31 Aug. 1732); Johann August Abraham (d. 6 Nov. 1733 shortly after birth).
Besides the children of Barbara who survived, there were twins who died shortly after birth in 1703 [sic --misprint for 1708 or 1713 ??], and a son named Leopold August born in Weimar 15 Nov 1718 d. 28 Sept. 1719.
Friedemann died 1 July 1784 at the age of 74. Emmanuel died in Hamburg in 1788.
J.S. Bach was born in Eisenach on 21 March 1685 and died at Leipzig 28 July 1750. He married Maria Barbara Bach (a cousin) on 17 Oct 1707 while serving as organist at St. Blasius in Mühlhausen. While serving as Kapellmeister to Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Cöthen, he accompanied the prince on a trip to Carlsbad in July 1720. On returning home, he found that Barbara had died suddenly and had been buried on 7 July, leaving him with the four children noted above. On 3 Dec. 1721 he married Anna Magdalena Wülken.
|
|
|
#46206
11/09/2001 8:48 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Well, the fugue and the prelude style that Bach developed so well may have gone out of style in the mid-18th century, but I personally think that the fugue is one of the greatest formal forms of music even today. That Bach was the master of the fugue is probably not disputed by anyone - no one else's seem to come even close to being as good. Yes, Bach was a plagiarist. He stole melodies from everywhere. But this was quite common in those days and was not thought ill of as it is today. As Kapelmeister to two particularly musically-inclined bosses, he had to maintain a spectacularly-high output of new music, novelty being the name of the game during the Enlightenment. There is one of his preludes which caused me some problems when I was studying for my advanced Trinity exams for classical guitar many moons ago. I had it as a piece of lute music. My mother had it as a piece composed for the clavier, and a slightly differently fingered version of it for the harpsichord - played today, of course, on the piano. There was also an arrangement of the same damned melody, in fact the whole fugue, for chamber orchestra. Since I had to attribute the efforts of all involved, I spent several weeks trying to track down who had arranged the piece I had for lute. It was only after I contacted a knowledgeable music librarian in Germany that I found out the truth - Bach had actually done them all himself. Wily, lazy old bastard that he was! I'd have dug him up and done for him myself if I could have, at the time. I'd hesitate to agree that Bach was more than just one of a bunch of (mostly German) composers and musicians who were early adopters of the new tempering system. He was probably one of the more prominent, but during his own lifetime he wasn't all that well known, or at least, no better known than several others. But, no matter what his faults were, there was always the fugue. JSB forever, I say!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#46207
11/09/2001 1:04 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
This topic is really very interesting once one understands the meaning of pantomath. Who are indisputable pantomaths? Certainly Michelangelo and Shakespeare.... Any others come immediately to mind?
WW
|
|
|
#46208
11/09/2001 4:07 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I thought we were in agreement, more or less, that a pantomath would know... well, everything. to me it almost seems a joke term. didn't someone earlier suggest that the writer that used it may have erred for polymath? to me, polymath is the word you want in describing someone such as those you're starting to list.
|
|
|
#46209
11/09/2001 7:08 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
tsuwm: The question would be is there a difference between a pantomath and an omniscient being? And I would guess, were the term pantomath taken seriously, that there would be such a difference if pantomath were applied to men and omnisicient were reserved for the supernatural. A pantomath would be comparable to the Renaissance man--well-learned, both broadly and deeply.
I didn't realize that we'd cast the term altogether out the window. I was just starting to develop an affection for it!
Best regards,
WW
|
|
|
|
|
