#46058
10/27/2001 3:37 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 36
newbie
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newbie
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In my old (14th edition, 1940) Encyclopaedia Britannica, there are two paragraphs under the heading Apache. The first describes the North American Indians of that name. The second I quote in its entirety: "In Paris, the name Apache is given to a class of criminals to describe whom in America the name thug was borrowed from India."
Does that strike anyone else as funny as it does me?
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#46059
10/27/2001 3:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,605
Carpal Tunnel
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By odd chance (don't ask!) I happen to have that edition, plus the 1929 edition. The earlier is identical.
It appears that the entry went without update for quite some time (the first paragraph cites population statistics from 1903). It may be that the Parisian term had fallen into disuse by the time of the 1929 and 1940 editions.
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#46060
10/27/2001 4:06 PM
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contrived, yet very interesting; and it makes me very curious to see if the OED captured this... ... voilà! Apache ... 2. Also apache. [Fr., f. prec.] A ruffian of a type infesting Paris; also gen. a man of ruffianly behaviour.
1902 Westm. Gaz. 22 Oct 8/1 The leader of the band of roughs in Paris known as the ‘Apaches’. 1909 Times 9 Feb. 4/4 Those apaches with which Brussels is haunted. 1920 Times Lit. Suppl. 10 June 363/2 Something a little more Bacchic than the calculated extravagances of the drawing-room apache would occasionally relieve the atmosphere. 1933 ‘G. Orwell’ Down & Out iii. 20 He wore side whiskers, which are the mark either of an apache or an intellectual.
...and the thug reference? (With capital T.) One of an association of professional robbers and murderers in India, who strangled their victims.one can easily suppose why the Fr. opted for the American term.... 
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#46061
10/27/2001 4:10 PM
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and then again, in the late 60's and 70's, Apache was used to define the war like conditions in the south bronx. Fort Apache became a nick name for a police precinct, and a book, and a movie.
we in US still have a tendency to close our eyes to the our own past. collectively, our behaviour has some very large blights. We like to pretend we always behave better than that now... but i fear it takes very little for the venner of respect to be damaged.. just look what happened to innocent people right after Sept. 11th. the arabs, iraqi's, pakistanis, and other in my neighborhood, are clearly anxious-- of me, and every one they encounter. they keep there eyes down, and avoid eye contact, and when i was bumped by a child having fun, (bumped by a shopping wagon) the mother froze, terrified.. i made light of it, and she relaxed, but, it is sad that she feels this way. and i don't think it is with out reason. i can keep calm, and let her know not every one who looks at her sees a terrorist, but that is very little.
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#46062
10/27/2001 4:24 PM
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And the Airborne Apaches should yell "Geronimo!" and bail out on OED to search and destroy.
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#46063
10/27/2001 9:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Yes, contrived. The "in America" doesn't belong anywhere, and it shouldn't be in the passive. We might actually say it like this: "a class of criminals, to describe whom, the Americans borrowed the name thug from India".
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#46064
10/27/2001 10:15 PM
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Posts: 6,296
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#46065
10/27/2001 11:39 PM
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Yes. but I think this is clearer:
In Paris, the name Apache is given to a low class of criminals. In The United States (NOT America!!!) Apache is the name of an Indian (American aboriginal) tribe, and there these criminals are often called thugs, which derives from the Indian (Asia) word thuggee.
It's longer, but sometimes clear writing tends to be that way, much to my chagrin.
TEd
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#46066
10/29/2001 8:54 AM
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In reply to:
"In Paris, the name Apache is given to a class of criminals to describe whom in America the name thug was borrowed from India."
In Paris, the name Apache is given to the class of criminals who in America are called thugs, a name borrowed from India.
Bingley
Bingley
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#46067
10/29/2001 9:18 AM
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#46068
10/29/2001 9:42 AM
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And where was I before? [miffed going on pissed off, bloody colonials, mutter, mutter]
Bingley
Bingley
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#46069
10/29/2001 3:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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"In Paris, the name Apache is given to a class of criminals to describe whom in America the name thug was borrowed from India."
Another instance of a more conservative usage in which case is used to impart a meaning which we, in our more enlightened era, consign to prepositions.
See also, Toys-R-Us®
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#46070
10/29/2001 6:08 PM
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Posts: 2,605
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Bingley, you may now move to the head of the class.
And where was I before? [miffed ... mutter, mutter] Bingley
Before? If I recall aright your delicately restrained comments in the "Brick Sh*thouse" thread, you were previously "the class of the head".
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#46071
10/30/2001 1:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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And where was I before?
Bingley, my dear, if you recall, you were declared to be our language expert. I'd say that pretty much puts you at the top of your class.
(Note to newcomers: tsuwm was declared our word expert.)
(Note to all: I propose that Nicholas be declared our languages expert.)
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#46072
10/30/2001 10:15 AM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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#46073
10/30/2001 3:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
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Sweet Double-dub, nary a dunce you are. You just need a bit more time to learn your way around. As do I--as long as I've been here, there's still a lot I don't know. The most recent revelation was how Helen solved the problem of accessing the Loanwords to German title--it has never ever occurred to me to do what she did, though it's been in front of my face this whole time.
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#46074
10/30/2001 6:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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for the answer, on what i did, you can check out "Not a word post, and another" ...in A & I
(thank you again jackie! --)
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