#45214
10/19/2001 8:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
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stranger
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stranger
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Hello,
Would someone please explain the logic behind labelling months 9, 10, 11 and 12 with names which suggest 7, 8, 9 and 10? Has it something to do with the Julian/Gregorian transition?
Furthermore, why aren't the balance of the months (back to March, which would be Month One) named with their corresponding Latin prefixes? (And as a point of interest, what would those prefixes be? Hex, Pent, etc?)
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#45215
10/20/2001 12:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
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Welcome to the picnic . . . I mean board, Ants.
You're right about the shifting of the months. July and August, from Julius and Augustus Caesar, were shoved in between June and September. I'm not totally sure who did it, but I'm guessing Augustus?
The other months I can only guess came from Roman mythology. January (Janus), March (Mars), June (Juno). I have no clue if that's correct, but I'm certain someone else on the board knows.
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#45216
10/20/2001 12:58 AM
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Dear Ants: Here is a URL with a good bit of the information you wanted: http://mathforum.org/dr.math/problems/waugh10.17.98.htmlFor some reason the above URL didn't work when I tested it, but when I used edit,copy, edit, paste into Location box, it worked fine. So try that if you need to.
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#45217
10/20/2001 1:16 AM
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In ancient (and not so ancient) times, Jan 1 was not the beginning of the new year; a new year began on the vernal equinox, in March. So if you count from March, September is the seventh month, Oct. the 8th, etc. The change to Jan 1 being the first day of the new year came with the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendars, so in England (and the American colonies) the switch occurred in (if I remember correctly) 1756. You will often see dates falling between Jan 1 and the March new year date shown with two years, i.e., Feb. 15, 1722/23, indicating that under the old system it was still 1722, but 1723 in the new system.
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#45218
10/20/2001 3:26 PM
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You will often see dates falling between Jan 1 and the March new year date shown with two years, i.e., Feb. 15, 1722/23, indicating that under the old system it was still 1722, but 1723 in the new system.
Good thing there were no computers or programmers around then!
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#45219
10/20/2001 4:37 PM
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The change occurred in April, and the people resisting the change called those who used it "April Fools".
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#45220
10/20/2001 7:16 PM
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old hand
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The year beginning in March explains why the Zodiac starts in March then, right?
If there were orginially only ten months, were there more days per month or was the year shorter? Seem that would screw up the seasons pretty quickly. And if it was the same length year, why bother adding two more months.
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#45221
10/20/2001 8:02 PM
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I'd always thought that the zodiac was independent of the current calendar, especially since the cusps hover around the 19th - 23rd days of the month. Yet, I could imagine the images created by "connecting the dots" were inspired by what was visible at/in certain place/times of the year... I know I would! What makes March so special?... in zodiac terms?
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#45222
10/20/2001 10:44 PM
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old hand
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What makes March so special?... in zodiac terms?
I don't know if it is, but I've always noticed that when the Zodiac signs are listed, they're always in the same order, with Taurus (my sign for April/May) is second on the list. That would make the sign for March/April first.
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#45223
10/21/2001 11:59 AM
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I have an idea the two-month period after December was left fallow, so to speak; there were no agricultural tasks to be done so they didn't need to name them. I can't vouch for this.
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#45224
10/21/2001 3:02 PM
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What makes March so special?... in zodiac terms?
Pure speculation on my part, but it is spring-- daylight is returning.. and in a agracultureal community, it is the start of the year. even in pre-agraculturual communities, the spring markes the beginning of life. herding animals often have biological cycles that time birth to the spring.
Ireland's old celtic new year is February 1st-- the beginning of lambing.. the 4 major seaonal holidys are Feb 1, Begining of summer, May 1 Summer, August 1, Midsummer, Nov 1, death of summer. (death of summer was also the death of the year, and marked the time that all who had died during the year crossed over into the spirit land.. so on the eve of the death of the year, the spirits of the dead arose, and started there journey to the other world.. this is still celebrated as halloween.)
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#45225
10/21/2001 3:11 PM
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I vaguely recall that February has only 28 days because Julius Caeser and August Caesar each took one day from February and added that day to their respective months, July and August, so that their months would not be shorter than others.
Can anyone confirm or correct?
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#45226
10/21/2001 4:35 PM
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I too understood Caesar and Augustus to have taken days from February for their own months; but now checking The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature s.v. Calendar and measure of time, it says Numa Pompilius (successor to Romulus as king) "is said to have added the months of January and February, making a year of twelve months (four of 31 days, seven of 29, February of 28), a total of 355 days", with intercalations to bring it into line with the solar year. This was the calendar that Caesar reformed into essentially the modern one, with the same distribution of days as our own.
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#45227
10/21/2001 4:43 PM
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This reminds me of an annoyance of mine own, the strange dates that people variously assign to the beginnings of seasons. By my understanding the middle of something divides the front half (the bit that talks) from the back half (the bit that kicks) in a fairly even way. So as midwinter - which is an astronomical feast of quite definite timing - occurs in about the middle of December (both pre and post Gregorian reform), the winter that it's said to be the middle of should be the months of November, December, and January. The Celtic method of having Beltane, Samhain, Lunasa, and whatever the other one is, as the doorway dates, makes perfect sense to me.
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#45228
10/21/2001 6:09 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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#45229
10/21/2001 10:49 PM
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midwinter which is an astronomical feast of quite definite timing occurs in about the middle of December Don't think so. You're assuming that each "season" is defined so that "mid-season" (e.g., midwinter) falls on the astronomical solstice or equinox. However, the definition of "season" is a period beginning at solstice or equinox (and ending at the next equinox or solstice; that is, at the start of the next season). http://bartleby.com/61/51/S0195100.html: "Each season, beginning astronomically at an equinox or solstice, is characterized by ..."Max, notice my care to avoid implying that December 23 is the winter solstice. 
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#45230
10/21/2001 11:09 PM
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#45231
10/22/2001 1:20 AM
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Jazzo, I am certain you are correct in surmising that the old date for New Year's Day resulted in Aries being the first of the signs of the Zodiac. My sign is either Aries or Taurus, first or second, my birthday being Apr 20, right on the cusp. Thus my friends who are into astrology account for my often schizophrenic or contradictory beliefs and habits.
There is a wealth of religious symbolism which has grown up around the equinoxes and the solstices. The best known is that of Passover and Easter, which are, of course, related. Passover is, if I remember correctly without going to look it up, the 2nd day of the Hebrew month Nisan, and falls in our calendar somewhere around the vernal equinox. Since we know from the Gospel accounts that Easter is the Sunday following Passover (the Last Supper was probably a seder, the ritual meal celebrating Passover), it should logically be the Sunday following the Jewish celebration of Passover, and it usually is, but not always. (Incidentally, the word for Easter in a number of languages is Pasqua, or Paques, or Pasca, or some other derivation of the Hebrew "Pesach" = Passover). For some reason I have forgotten, Easter is defined in Church calendars as the Sunday following the full moon which follows the vernal equinox. Hence the possible range of dates is Mar. 25 to Apr 25 and sometimes it's a week or more away from Passover, but it's always linked to Passover.
Then there is the curious case of the feasts of the two Saints John. The feast of St. John the Evangelist is Dec. 27, which, in the days of the Julian calendar, was the winter solstice. The feast of St. John the Baptist is June 24, which used to be the summer solstice (sorry Max, you only get a brief S. Hemisph. acknowledgement). I'm positive this is some kind of symbol involving either light or renewal, or both, but needs a good deal of thought. Any ideas?
Then there is the feast of St. Michael the Archangel, which occurs on Sept. 29, or near the autumnal equinox, which celebrates the triumph of that archangel over Lucifer (= lightbearer !!) and his fellow fallen angels. This is today a minor deal even in ecclesiastical circles, but it was formerly a major holiday -- so much so that it gave its name to a season. There is a Michaelmas (= Michael mass, feast of Michael, on the same pattern as Christ-mass) quarter for financial purposes and a Michaelmas term at Oxford & Cambridge.
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#45232
10/22/2001 7:10 AM
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However, the definition of "season" is a period beginning at solstice or equinox (and ending at the next equinox or solstice; that is, at the start of the next season).
Well that's entirely my point. Who "defines" this? I'm complaining that such a definition is sometimes used, with obvious absurdity.
For me, my winter is the period of greatest cold, which is more or less evenly distributed around midwinter (in my case mid-December). This seems the natural definition of a season. It's winter when it's most wintry, and it's summer when it's most summery.
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#45233
10/22/2001 7:40 AM
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A public-spirited Canadian subject of Her Majesty's has typed in 24 Geo. 2. c. 23, the Act of Parliament that changed the dating system used in His then Majesty's Dominions and Countries from Old Style to New Style. http://www.urbanlegends.com/legal/calendar_act.htmlBingley
Bingley
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#45234
10/22/2001 3:30 PM
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Bob, thank you--I have wanted to know what this was ever since I read Daphne du Maurier's "The House on the Strand" many years ago, and in recent times have had a much more personal reason. But the admittedly rather few efforts I'd made had come to naught. Ah, how satisfying to have that old puzzle piece finally fall into place!
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#45235
10/24/2001 10:37 AM
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addict
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Bingley, thanks for that link - delightful. And (repeating some info I posted way back) the UK tax year still runs from April 6 to April 5, which was the old New Year plus the 11 days.
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#45236
10/25/2001 4:09 AM
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More word-orientated, does anyone think supputation is due for a revival?
Bingley
Bingley
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#45237
10/25/2001 1:04 PM
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The adjustment of calendars to make the artifical people calendar agree with the celestial calendar occasioned sporadic violence because people honestly believed that the various changes robbed them of days of their lives.
TEd
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#45238
10/25/2001 1:21 PM
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Nick:
Long before there were calendars, people knew only a few things about their environment. The sunrise and sunset moved north and south over time. Days became longer, nights shorter, then seemed to stand still for a while, then reversed.
These observations were used by the smarter people to control the not-so-smart. How powerful is the chieftan who can tell his people, "The sun is going further and further north every morning. If it keeps going we will all die. BUT behold. I can stop that and make the sun come back. And to prove it, I will tell you when that is going to happen. Obey ME! I am not a crook. And I don't have anthrax either."
Then a few months later, the chief could tell the people when to start planting. And after that he could tell his people that the sun was going to go away, probably because they had done something not so good. Then he could tell them when it was time to harvest.
All of these events became rituals which people today call pagan (but which word has a bit too much baggage and I prefer pre-historical in this context.) The winter ritual became known as Saturnalia (though I don't remember why it got that name.) When the Christians looked around for a time to celebrate the birth of the Christ they selected Saturnalia because they could celebrate when others were celebrating Saturnalia and they wouldn't be noticed.
Easter is similar. The fertility rites during the springtime of the year were perfect camouflage for the beleaguered and secretive early Christians.
And to this day some Christians practice some rituals that are not strictly Christian. I happened to be on the Aran Islands some years ago when there was a spring fertility rite, which involved large bonfires and (apparently) some otherwise unacceptable extramarital rustlings in the bushes far removed from the light of the bonfires. I was told at the time that the two or three priests on the island simply left for the night.
Consuelo will probably be able to confirm that many Mexicans who are mainly Catholic also hedge their bets by paying homage to the old ways.
TEd
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#45239
10/25/2001 1:45 PM
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Supputation???
Eschew this blantant epenthetic travesty. The word is suppution!
Or did you mean suppuration?
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#45240
10/25/2001 1:55 PM
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the strange dates that people variously assign to the beginnings of seasons.
Around here the coldest period tends to center around January or early February. Winter in terms of snow and ice doesn't really get started (Sorry E) till about mid December. March is usually good for a healthy snow storm or two. The weather tends to lag behind the path of the sun.
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#45241
10/25/2001 2:03 PM
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re: I happened to be on the Aran Islands some years ago when there was a spring fertility rite, which involved large bonfires and (apparently) some otherwise unacceptable extramarital rustlings in the bushes far removed from the light of the bonfires. I was told at the time that the two or three priests on the island
simply left for the night.
yup-- it caused no end of bother that the irish have not only keep many of the old ways, but have incorported so many of them into what used to be a Roman Catholic church. It was because of that, the one and only english pope insisted that England get involved in Ireland and set them straight.. and so started 400 year of english involvement with ireland! (this came about when he discovered in Rome, that many of the practice he thought were catholic, were really remnants of irish ways..)
All would have been fine, if ireland had keep quiet, but the irish have never been known for keeping quiet!
some have become institutionalized, like All Souls day..(Nov 1st) which is now a holy day of obligation.. it was the most somber and important days of the irish calendar.. and halloween, has become a big holiday in US.. nothing like what is was when i was a kid.. then it was only big in irish catholic neighborhoods, though kids everywhere liked it.. but we always had real outfits--not store bought costumes, and lots of Jack o'lanterns, and apples, and always a piece of candy left on the door mat before we went to bed!
(and my parents where citified, and removed from many of the old ways that the country folk practiced.)
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#45242
10/25/2001 6:37 PM
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people honestly believed that the various changes robbed them of days of their lives.
Granted that there was much ignorant objection.
However, the matter is not as simple as it sounds, in a commercial world. For example, suppose the terms of your home mortgage requires that you pay $1,000 on the first of each month. What happens when the calendar change is made and (say), the day after Sept. 5 is Sept. 16? Are you expected to pay the full $1000 on Oct. 1?
Such problems are the reason that England, which was in fact well-commercialized by the time it made the calendar-correction, needed extensive legislation to implement the change.
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#45243
10/25/2001 7:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3
stranger
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stranger
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Many thanks to the lot of you, for most interesting replies, as well as intriguing diversions.
May I be so bold as to reiterate my secondary query, namely what the [Latinate] prefixes (in descending order) would be, ie Dec- Nov- Oct- Sept- ....
What would a similar Greek progression look like?
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#45244
10/25/2001 7:51 PM
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I just love this group. You get to learn the most amazing facts. Thanks to you all for being so smart - smart enough to ask the right questions, find the answers and spark more related questions too.
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#45245
10/25/2001 8:48 PM
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ants! i am so glad you came back! and posted again! we are a wild and crazy bunch-- and as you have noted, are prone to as you so gallently worded it..intriguing diversions. Welcome to board.. and do please stay, and post.
as for the answer to your question, its greek to me.. i only have a second class degree.. (but not a desmond..) which i am sure Jackie's aunt Mav or Rhu will be happy to explain. so no latin or greek for me. but as i recall the prefixes are not too different.. deca is 10 (as in a dodecahedron-- a 12 sided figure.. (do =2, deca=10, dodeca=2+ 10 or 12) but i don't specifically know the numeric prefixes.
and keep plugging away, we will continue to spin off diversions. but eventually, we will answer your questions..
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#45246
10/25/2001 8:55 PM
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Dear Ants: I always have an answer on tap, but can't remember what the question was.
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#45247
10/26/2001 5:19 AM
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Latin: dec, nov, oct, sept, sex, quin, quad, tri, bi/duo, uni.
Greek: dek, ennea, oct, hept, hex, pent, tetra, tri, anhi/di, hen.
If you're familiar with the metric system, dividers as in millimetre (1/1000 of a metre) are Latin based and multipliers as in kilometre (1000 metres) are Greek based.
If you look at the thread "not English but Urdu,,, I think" from the beginning of the month, you'll find a list of the Sanskrit forms from 1-8.
Bingley
Bingley
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#45248
10/26/2001 5:31 AM
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If supputation is in an Act of Parliament, then the word is supputation, and this was before you rebelled, so it applies to you as well. Yah boo sucks to you. [we will be returning you to adulthood as soon as possible]
A.D. 1751. Anno vicesimo quarto GEORGII II.
CAP. XXIII.
An Act for Regulating the Commencement of the Year; and for
Correcting the Calendar now in Use.
[`Amended by 25 Geo. 2. c. 30.']
` WHEREAS the legal Supputation of the Year of our Lord in that Part ` of *Great Britain* called *England*, according to which the Year ` beginneth on the 25th Day of *March*, hath been found by Experience ` to be attended with divers Inconveniencies, not only as it differs ` from the Usage of neighbouring Nations, but also from the legal ` Method of Computation in that Part of *Great Britain* called ` *Scotlond* [sic], and from the common Usage throughout the whole ` Kingdom, and thereby frequent Mistakes are occasioned in the Dates ` of Deeds, and other Writings, and Disputes arise therefrom:
Bingley
Bingley
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#45249
10/26/2001 8:20 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>like All Souls day..(Nov 1st) which is now a holy day of obligation Unless it was different in Ireland, Helen: All Saints (those who have been canonised) is the 1st (holy day of obligation) and All Souls (ordinary souls like you and I) is the 2nd November. http://www.easterbrooks.com/ccgi-bin/Cathcal.cgi?20011101
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#45250
10/26/2001 1:29 PM
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Supputation is simply calculation or scheme for calculation.
TEd
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#45251
11/02/2001 5:19 PM
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When the Christians looked around for a time to celebrate the birth of the Christ they selected Saturnalia because they could celebrate when others were celebrating Saturnalia and they wouldn't be noticed.
That's an interesting take on the issue. I've certainly noticed the concurrence of "pagan" and Christian holy days, but I always assumed it was a PR move on the Christians' part ("Sure you can still celebrate Saturnalia, just call it Christmas, OK?") rather than camoflage. Is that just your theory, Ted, or do you know it to be the case?
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#45252
11/02/2001 5:43 PM
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>Is that just your theory, Ted, or do you know it to be the case?
That is an excellent question, FL. One for which there might not be a good answer. There's no documentation of when Jesus was born, and no one bothered to record his birth anywhere, so far as we know. Beyond that, there's no documentation that Christians formally celebrated the birth of Christ for quite some time after his crucifixion. I found this at the top of a google on "history of Christmas":
The History of Christmas
The history of Christmas dates back over 4000 years. Many of
our Christmas traditions were celebrated centuries before the
Christ child was born. The 12 days of Christmas, the bright fires,
the yule log, the giving of gifts, carnivals(parades) with floats,
carolers who sing while going from house to house, the holiday
feasts, and the church processions can all be traced back to the
early Mesopotamians.
Many of these traditions began with the Mesopotamian
celebration of New Years. The Mesopotamians believed in many
gods, and as their chief god - Marduk. Each year as winter arrived
it was believed that Marduk would do battle with the monsters of
chaos. To assist Marduk in his struggle the Mesopotamians held a
festival for the New Year. This was Zagmuk, the New Year's
festival that lasted for 12 days.
The Mesopotamian king would return to the temple of
Marduk and swear his faithfulness to the god. The traditions called
for the king to die at the end of the year and to return with Marduk
to battle at his side.
To spare their king, the Mesopotamians used the idea of a
"mock" king. A criminal was chosen and dressed in royal clothes.
He was given all the respect and privileges of a real king. At the
end of the celebration the "mock" king was stripped of the royal
clothes and slain, sparing the life of the real king.
The Persians and the Babylonians celebrated a similar festival
called the Sacaea. Part of that celebration included the exchanging
of places, the slaves would become the masters and the masters
were to obey.
Early Europeans believed in evil spirits, witches, ghosts and
trolls. As the Winter Solstice approached, with its long cold nights
and short days, many people feared the sun would not return.
Special rituals and celebrations were held to welcome back the sun.
In Scandinavia during the winter months the sun would
disappear for many days. After thirty-five days scouts would be sent
to the mountain tops to look for the return of the sun. When the
first light was seen the scouts would return with the good news. A
great festival would be held, called the Yuletide, and a special feast
would be served around a fire burning with the Yule log. Great
bonfires would also be lit to celebrate the return of the sun. In
some areas people would tie apples to branches of trees to remind
themselves that spring and summer would return.
The ancient Greeks held a festival similar to that of the
Zagmuk/Sacaea festivals to assist their god Kronos who would
battle the god Zeus and his Titans.
The Roman's celebrated their god Saturn. Their festival was
called Saturnalia which began the middle of December and ended
January 1st. With cries of "Jo Saturnalia!" the celebration would
include masquerades in the streets, big festive meals, visiting
friends, and the exchange of good-luck gifts called Strenae (lucky
fruits).
The Romans decked their halls with garlands of laurel and
green trees lit with candles. Again the masters and slaves would
exchange places.
"Jo Saturnalia!" was a fun and festive time for the Romans,
but the Christians though it an abomination to honor the pagan god.
The early Christians wanted to keep the birthday of their Christ
child a solemn and religious holiday, not one of cheer and
merriment as was the pagan Saturnalia.
But as Christianity spread they were alarmed by the continuing
celebration of pagan customs and Saturnalia among their converts.
At first the Church forbid this kind of celebration. But it was to no
avail. Eventually it was decided that the celebration would be tamed
and made into a celebration fit for the Christian Son of God.
Some legends claim that the Christian "Christmas"
celebration was invented to compete against the pagan celebrations
of December. The 25th was not only sacred to the Romans but also
the Persians whose religion Mithraism was one of Christianity's
main rivals at that time. The Church eventually was successful in
taking the merriment, lights, and gifts from the Saturanilia festival
and bringing them to the celebration of Christmas.
The exact day of the Christ child's birth has never been
pinpointed. Traditions say that it has been celebrated since the
year 98 AD. In 137 AD the Bishop of Rome ordered the birthday of
the Christ Child celebrated as a solemn feast. In 350 AD another
Bishop of Rome, Julius I, choose December 25th as the
observance of Christmas.
http://www.holidays.net/christmas/story.htm
A perusal of some of the other sites (there are lots of them) doesn't find specific support the theory, but doesn't rule it out, either. This is one of those things that I have "always" known, it seems, having been taught same by my father, who was an historian and journalist. It made sense, because I knew the early Christians were widely persecuted and kept their lights under bushels, so I just accepted it.
In retrospect, I would NOT bet money on the theory, but I wouldn't bet against it either.
TEd
TEd
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#45253
11/02/2001 7:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear Ants: In case you are not already sufficiently confused, here is a URL that tells about the entirely new calendar proposed by the proponents of the French Revolution: http://windhorst.org/calendar/
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