#45146
10/19/2001 4:42 PM
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While searching for something else, I ran across the 23rd Psalm:
Title: Psalm 23
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;
thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life:
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
And I wondered why two words were used, "rod" and "staff" Why both? What was the difference?
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#45147
10/19/2001 5:06 PM
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The rod was the gat, the heater and the staff was the trusted lieutenants who carried out the boss's orders.
Or, conversely, there was an old English tradition of using two words to translate one if the sense of the word in the source language didn't quite match the sense of any one word in the target language.
Or, perhaps the two words meant totally different things to a Jacobian English speaker. The rod being a rod of authority and the staff a shepherd's crook. The Luther version gives Stecken (stick) und Stab (crosier) and the Segond ta houlette (walking-stick) et ton bāton (shepherd's crook). The Vulgate doesn't seem to match up at all near as I can tell, the 22nd nor the 24th neither.
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#45148
10/19/2001 5:09 PM
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It has to do with microbiology.
One is a rod-shaped bacterium, the other is a staff inflection.
TEd
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#45149
10/19/2001 5:49 PM
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Dear TEd: you are re-writing Scripture. Thy rod and thy Staph discomfort me greatly.And howcome He lets terrorists use them?
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#45150
10/19/2001 7:45 PM
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Hmm, that is an interesting question. I have rarely heard of either a rod or a staff as being objects of comfort. They are usually used as tools of punishment.
Maybe they represent strength, seeing as the person who usually holds both is usually responsible for taking care of the people below him.
Sort of representative of that thingy that kings hold. (so sorry folks, I have been working in French for the last four days and my brain is not working in English tonight.)
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#45151
10/19/2001 8:20 PM
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the person who usually holds both is usually responsible for taking care of the people below him.
IMHO, precisely right. Ties into, "The Lord is my shepherd". Are rod and staff a shepherd's tools?
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#45152
10/19/2001 8:56 PM
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bill, here's an interpretive link, which includes this: Rod, a club used to fend off wild animals. Staff an instrument to keep sheep from wandering off. http://www.crossmarks.com/habitsfaith/ps23.htm
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#45153
10/19/2001 9:23 PM
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Thanks for the link, tsuwm. The version "they protect me" makes good sense. The shepherd's crooks I have seen have a U-shaped end that can be used to catch sheep by neck to restrain it with out hurting it. It might be damaged trying to drive away a predator, for which a sturdy club would be needed. I wonder when sheep dogs were first used. I don't remember their being mentioned in the Bible.
I found a site that stated dogs were domesticated by 10,000 BC, and sheep by 8,000 BC. From the very beginning a domesticated dog could warn of approaching predator, which would be very valuable. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the use of dogs for herding sheep is comparatively recent.
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#45154
10/19/2001 9:31 PM
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I wonder when sheep dogs were first used.I momentarily turn over the keyboard to my border collie, Flirt: [Flirt] We border collies are well recognized as the finest-performing sheep-dogs.  [/Flirt]
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#45155
10/19/2001 9:50 PM
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I found a site describing sheep dogs responding to voice commands of shepherd in 1576. It is marvelous to watch border collie sheep trials, to see owner able to have dog several hundred yards away bring in a designated sheep, and drive it into fold. Border collies are very bright, but very apt to get into mischief if the do not have sheep to work on. I would not advise anyone to try to have sheep without a Border Collie to drive them into fold for the night. One dog can do what a dozen humans cannot.
If you are a dog lover, you would enjoy tear-jerking tale "The Trials of Nop".
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#45156
10/19/2001 10:58 PM
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Border collies are very bright, but very apt to get into mischief if they do not have sheep to work on.
[Flirt] Arf! You've got me pegged, dr. bill. But we have other outlets: if sheep aren't available we'll try to herd toddlers, young children, or even short-statured adults! [/Flirt]
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#45157
10/19/2001 11:41 PM
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I wonder when sheep dogs were first used. I don't remember their being mentioned in the Bible.
Job 30:1 (King James version): But now they that are younger than I have me in derision, whose fathers I would have disdained to have set with the dogs of my flock.
Iliad, Book X: and sitting with their arms about them. as sheep dogs that watch their flocks
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#45158
10/20/2001 12:14 AM
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Dear Keiva: You must have read both Bible and Iliad more extensively than I did. Of course for many years the dogs would have been principally a defense against predators. We had a Maremma guaranteed to keep predators away. The Border Collies struck me as regarding the sheep as potential food supply that they shared with us. A Border Collie "giving eye" to a sheep is very obviously no friend of the sheep. And I have read that in the UK where they originated, they are routinely destroyed at about age five or six, because they sneak out at night and kill somebody else's sheep. I think James Herriot has a story about this.
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#45159
10/20/2001 12:37 AM
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You must have read both Bible and Iliad more extensively than I did. Must admit that I merely googled. Haven't yet looked for a searchable Code of Hammurabi!  Border Collie "giving eye" to a sheep is very obviously no friend of the sheep.On the contrary. The border collie, using "eye", works the sheep by threatening just enough to make them shy away in the desired direction, but not enough to stampede them. It's a very fine line, I understand. I've admittedly never watched a sheepdog trial (must remedy that), but I've seen it in action when the dog herded by kids, when they were small. I believe this "eye" technique is unique to border collies. Other herding breeds do their work, for example, by running at the sheep or cattle or by nipping at their heels. BTW, border collies are being used to frighten migratory geese away from golf courses. It's been found the only effective way to control serious problems, at some cousess, of (how to put this delicately?) grossly excessive goose-droppings.  And I have read that in the UK where they originated, they are routinely destroyed at about age five or six, because they sneak out at night and kill somebody else's sheep.[Flirt] A foul canard!  Your sources, sir?  [/Flirt] [keiva] Down, girl! dr. bill's one of the good guys! [/keiva]
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#45160
10/20/2001 1:22 AM
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I regret to say, dear friends, that y'all are floundering about when there is a perfectly simple answer. I don't have it, since, alas, I am not a Hebrew scholar. What you quoted, Dr. Bill, is the classical English translation of a Hebrew psalm. To answer your question authoritatively, we need a Hebrew scholar to enlighten us on the Hebrew words for "rod" and "staff" in the original. Any scholars out there?
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#45161
10/20/2001 1:48 AM
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I'm not sure there is any extant hebrew original. As I recall, the King James was a translation from the latin Vulgate, which in turn was a translation from the aramaic. I'll try to do a little checking, but on me, you shouldn't count.
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#45162
10/20/2001 1:58 AM
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Pardon my saying it, Ken, but you are totally out to lunch. The King James Ver. (properly called the "Authorized Version") was the work of the most eminent divines of the day and they worked from all available originals, Hebrew and Aramaic for the Old Testament and Apochrypha, Greek and others for the New Testament, not from the Vulgate. The Vulgate was not from Aramaic sources; St. Jerome used basically the same sources as the later English translators, but his were better, being more than 1000 years more recent. Also, the Psalms are read and/or sung every week, in the original Hebrew, in synagogues worldwide; indeed, many are recited daily by the devout, so there is no problem finding the Hebrew original of Ps. 23. Of course, you have to know Hebrew to address Dr. Bill's question.
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#45163
10/20/2001 2:18 AM
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Dear Keiva: We had Border Collies for about ten years, and I paid a lot of attention to them. My feeling is that they feel they have a contract to help the shepherd, whose judgement they frequently are tempted to doubt, but they still look on the sheep as prey being conserved for an eventual banquet. I still say that when they are "giving eye" they are saying under their breath "I'd chew the bejesus out of you if I could get away with it!" There was an article in Smithsonian a couple years ago about their being used to herd geese off turf which the geese want to eat, and into the pond, where there is nothing the geese want. So the geese get discouraged with being hurt, which would get the bleeding hearts up in arms. The geese are really getting to be a nuisance, and I thought it stupid that they were allowed in hundreds close to runways at Dulles. They could easily cause plane crash by getting into engine intake.
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#45164
10/20/2001 3:22 AM
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No "pardon my saying so" needed, byb. I was tentative in my info (I should have so indicated more clearly), and you're well ahead of me on this one. Later edit: Mine certainly was a durn-fool comment, wasn't it? I tried a bit of googling throuh "talmud", without success. However, Flirt insists that I first google to demolish dr. bill's defamation.  As FDR said in his Fala speech, Well, of course, I don't resent attacks, and my family doesn't resent attacks, but [Flirt] does resent them. [S]he has not been the same dog since. I am accustomed to hearing malicious falsehoods about myself. But I think I have a right to resent, to object to libelous statements about my dog." 
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#45165
10/20/2001 1:52 PM
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Dear Keiva: Here is a quote about rogue Border Collies, which of course does not apply to Flirt. Border Collie site http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.htmlRogue dogs however, are not uncommon, and in many European countries, Australia and New Zealand, where the dogs are often allowed to roam free, sheep and calf-killing Border Collies can pose occassional threats to livestock. Many people say that once a Border Collie has tasted blood, they can never be trusted again and normally, the dogs are summarily exterminated.
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#45166
10/20/2001 3:58 PM
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intersestingly, there are two differing kinds of sheep dogs.
some like border collies, still look and act like dogs.. and the sheep are mildly frightened by them, enough so that they flock away.
there are also sheep dogs that are "wolf's in sheeps clothing's". they have long thick, wool like fur, and hide in the flock.. they are often playful, but they are at the same time large and powerful. any real wolf that came along to attach the sheep would suddenly find himself confronting a large, powerful dog.. (and not being much of a dog lover, nor very interested in breeds, i didn't go to the AKA to look up the breeds.. but we all know them, the "shepherd" dogs with long, stringy fleese like fur..
I am sure some one will supply us with a name, and links to 100 times more informations. (or at least 100 more than a non dog--no make that animal lover needs)
*Note, i don't dislike animals, it just i have never been interested in having any of my own.. not fish, not birds, not cats not dogs.. --i did sort of think about a lamb, like CK, i thought it might be a nice way to deal with the grass, and a local farm museum does exactly that.. but after reading CK's experiences with a wether.. i am cured of any romantic notions i had!
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#45167
10/20/2001 4:24 PM
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[Flirt] dr. bill, once you switch to "occassional rogue dogs" rather than " routinely destoyed", I can agree with you. I must admit that there are (pardon the double entrendre) a few black sheep, aberrant thugs, in every family, including mine. One source ( http://www.bcrescue.org/bc-page.html) says, Question: What is the best thing about Border Collies?
Answer: Border Collies are extremely intelligent and active dogs.
Question: What is the worst thing about Border Collies?
Answer: Border Collies are extremely intelligent and active dogs.Rather like ayleurs! [tail-wagging -e] [/Flirt]
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#45168
10/20/2001 11:40 PM
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#45169
10/20/2001 11:55 PM
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Dear Wordwind: I should think it very difficult to measure the intelligence of dogs accurately enough to make comparison. One thing that makes a tremendous difference is the motivation of the dogs. The Border Collies are highly motivated to please the owner. But I remember an Irish Setter we owned before the AKC turned them into beautiful idiots. That dog learned three tricks in one night, but when I tried to get him to learn a fourth, he just kept repeating the third, and I swear he was laughing at me, because he knew three tricks were enough to get him all the treats he wanted.
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#45170
10/21/2001 12:28 AM
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#45171
10/21/2001 1:07 AM
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enthusiast
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I found a site describing sheep dogs responding to voice commands of shepherd in 1576.
I heard that sheepdogs were first used to keep sheepherders away from sheep. I don't think they called them sheepherders then. Is that true, wwh?
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#45172
10/21/2001 1:22 AM
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The geese are really getting to be a nuisance, and I thought it stupid that they were allowed in hundreds close to runways at Dulles. They could easily cause plane crash by getting into engine intake.
wwh. I have read that some Airports are now using Falcons and trained Falconeers to keep birds away. Don't know if a Falcom will intimidate a goose, do you?
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#45173
10/21/2001 2:41 AM
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curiously, a nesting pair of swan will! I live near a salt water marsh-- the last one left on Long Island north shore. it has a large varity of water fowl, but very few geese. the swan chase them! i have read that geese do not nest near swans. and while we only have two, they are mean, nasty birds. the look very elegant, but they can be agressive. (and as Faldage is always pointing out, i should know, what with daddy and all...)
an alternate that is being tried.. is grape flavoring. geese can't stand it. so, un sweetened, grape flavored kool ade is diluted and sprayed on the grass.. and geese will not eat the grass, and don't even hang around.. problem is many golfers can't stand it either..
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#45174
10/21/2001 3:14 AM
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Returning belatedly to "thy rod and thy staff", and byb's inquiry as to the orignal hebrew words:
I e-mailed that question to a rabbi who runs a talmud sites. Promptly after close of the sabbath, Rav Lipman sent me the following reply:
there isn't a talmudic commentary, but I can tell you about a shevet and a mish'an, normally translated rod and staff (which is incorrect).
The Shevet was originally a pole used to hold a tribe's "emblem." (hence the word shevet also means tribe....) We don't know much from the Torah about these emblems; there is much Talmudic material about them. However, the pole itself was cut down to about 4 ft long and was used to keep a flock together by whacking strays with it. It was thin enough that it would not cause actual damage, but it certainly motivated sheep and goats to not stray.
The Mishan was similar to the staves used for defense described in the fight between Robin Hood and Little John; the mish'an was about six feet long and about four inches in diameter. It could scare off (or even kill) wolves and wild cats and other predators interested in the flock.
Hence the image in the Psalm is God as a shepherd with the appropriate equipment to keep the flock in line AND safe.
Neither the shevet nor the mish'an was used in war; even Little John resorted to a sword when going against the Nottingham deputies....
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#45175
10/21/2001 12:35 PM
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#45176
10/21/2001 12:38 PM
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wordwind, I'll try to get Rav Lipman to join us for this discussion.
Post-edit: No can do. Ars longa, vita brivis.
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#45177
10/21/2001 1:58 PM
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old hand
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border collies
Well, what a coincidence.
Yesterday's cartoon in the Far Side daily calendar shows a room full of sheep at a party. They're just staring around not really doing anything. The door of the house is open and in it stands a dog. One sheep is saying to another. "Henry! Our party's total chaos! No one knows when to eat, where to stand, what to . . . Oh, thank God! Here comes a border collie!"
EDIT: Oh my, I've become an Old Hand . . . and I'm only 18.
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#45178
10/21/2001 2:08 PM
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#45179
10/21/2001 5:29 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Indeed, Dr Bill, there is a Border Collie rescue service which places trained Border Collies at airports as working dogs to keep birds from endangering themselves and the planes on the runways. The first dog was placed, IIRC, at a Florida airport. With a busy, purposeful goal everyday, and plenty of attention, I'll bet that is one happy Border Collie.
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#45180
10/21/2001 5:45 PM
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Dear Sparteye: what worries me about the Dulles Airport is that the geese fly across the runways to get to a large pond surrounded by grass close to the Terminal.
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#45181
10/21/2001 5:48 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Thanks for the info, Keiva.
and I'll add, with more speculation than authority:
the slightly redundant nature of the original, translated as "rod and staff," is perhaps another manifestation of the redundancies which permeate the old testament, especially the pentateuch. According to Who Wrote the Bible?, Richard Friedman, there were four identifiable authors: one from Judah (J), one competitor from Israel (E), one later Aaronid priest (P), and one competing priest (D), who wrote separate works documenting the histories of the Jewish people from their own perspectives. The pentateuch was then consolidated into a single document which attempted to include the terms as used in all the various works, which is why the Bible is full of conflicts and redundancies.
It would be a bit like having had somebody from the US and somebody from England each write the story of the Revolutionary War in 1800, and then two others from the US and England write some updates in 1900, and then a fifth person putting the four documents together in 2000.
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#45182
10/21/2001 9:22 PM
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Bill, if every sheepdog which had tasted blood was put down, very few if any would still be alive and chasing sheep in New Zealand. And probably Australia. They regularly lose their cool and nip the sheep, some harder than others. The best cure for that, especially if you are working sheep with them in the yards, is a four-foot length of alkathene pipe.
Dogs are put down every week in New Zealand for molesting sheep. The vast majority of these are stray city dogs which have gone walkabout and discovered sheep - and their propensity to run away from dogs - for the first time. The range of breeds when one dog acts alone is usually in the German shepherd/rottweiler/doberman area. This is not a rule, however. Labradors, retrievers, terriers and spaniels have all been guilty of it. When a pack of dogs goes rogue and starts molesting sheep, even poodles and pomeranians have been involved. And even Keeshonds. The number of border collies involved is probably in proportion to the number of pet collies that exist as a percentage of the pet dog population. Farm dogs very rarely molest sheep off their own bat, although it is common enough. A pack of farm dogs would rather fight among themselves than chase sheep off duty. And frequently do unless the most aggressive ones are confined when they're not working.
Pure border collies as sheepdogs are reasonably rare in New Zealand. There is nothing magical about the breed, although it's a good start. Farmers will breed a good bitch with a good dog regardless of the breed. Collie ancestry is usually present and sometimes appears to be the dominant influence, but mostly they'd no more be able to claim a border collie pedigree than I would. My father in law was a noted dog breeder and handler when he was farming, and most of his dogs were real mongrels and looked it.
In New Zealand and Australia there are three "classes" of sheepdog. These are the eye dog (as you described), heading dogs (which are good at rounding sheep up and directing them en masse to a certain point and, usually, working the sheep in the yards) and huntaways. Huntaways are the "lone wolves" of the sheepdog world. A huntaway is sent up the hill to bring down sheep which have avoided being rounded up by the other dogs. They quite often go considerable distances out of sight of the musterer, and they have to be trustworthy. Of course, not all of them are. Stories about the judgement and sheep-herding ability of huntaways are the stuff that books are made of, literally.
Your link was interesting enough, but nothing in it was unique to border collies. I know a Jack Russell terrier which is as smart as a whip, although I won't bore you with dog stories. My first Keeshond was as cunning as a shithouse rat, and they're not notable as an "intelligent breed". My current one, however, isn't frequently called "Shitfer" for nothing ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#45183
10/21/2001 9:32 PM
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#45184
10/21/2001 10:23 PM
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Dear CK: Sheep are so plentiful in New Zealand that the loss of a few doesn't hurt as bad as it would in UK.I remember reading about a couple million NZ sheep being slaughtered and buried because there just too damned many of them.To be sure many unpedigreed sheep dogs are very good. But if I were going to buy a young one, the Border collies are more likely to be satisfactory. I miss my wife, but I don't miss her sheep.
Dear WW: In Massachusetts, there are no more packs of stray dogs. The problem now is coyotes. A couple of my wife's friends had llamas, but they had a problem of being mean, and kicking kids. My wife had a Maremma, a huge Italian breed, that was a disappointment, in that he would desert his post to visit a female poodle who could have walked under his belly without touching him. Ain't love grand?
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#45185
10/21/2001 10:31 PM
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